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To Force or Not To Force?
So you are responding to a fire call, dispatch states caller sees smoke coming from the furnace room of his apartment complex, no flames. You get on scene, 16 unit apartment complex, type V construction, (one of nine other similar buildings) nothing showing, first in engine goes in to investigate. Resident opens the complex door for FF's and proceeds back upstairs, no fire alarm going off and people still in apartments. FD tells people to get out and activates the alarm. Radio reports initially state the furnace room is in the basement, there is no basement, then a report states the caller is in an upstairs unit.
FD goes upstairs, further evacuating residents, no smoke, slight odor very faint, furnace room upstairs is clear, laundry room is clear, another furnace room through the laundry room is locked, but door is cool. Resident who called FD is asked where he saw smoke, he points to door across the hall from him, when asked if anyone is home there he says no and proceeds downstairs to leave.
Door to apartment is cool, nothing shows up on TIC. The knox box is located on another building of the complex, not the unit reporting smoke, keyholder is 15 minutes out. So what do you do? Do you wait for the keyholder, wait for the keys from the knox box (which may not open the individual apartments) or do you force the door?
FD goes upstairs, further evacuating residents, no smoke, slight odor very faint, furnace room upstairs is clear, laundry room is clear, another furnace room through the laundry room is locked, but door is cool. Resident who called FD is asked where he saw smoke, he points to door across the hall from him, when asked if anyone is home there he says no and proceeds downstairs to leave.
Door to apartment is cool, nothing shows up on TIC. The knox box is located on another building of the complex, not the unit reporting smoke, keyholder is 15 minutes out. So what do you do? Do you wait for the keyholder, wait for the keys from the knox box (which may not open the individual apartments) or do you force the door?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Derek R. on
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I'm stuck on the "key holder is 15 minutes away".
In my dealing with apartment buildings, either fire related or work related, there is always a custodian/maintenance person or building supervisor in the building who has keys. The building super. or manager has a room of their own in each building, unless the buildings are right next to each other, then one person will look after 2 or 3 buildings. Still, in an emergency situation, at most, a 3-5 minute wait for the keys. If it were here in my area, I would wait for the keys. But, sure, start getting stuff ready just in case. And if you can get a ladder to the roof, I agree with everyone else, put one up. Again, this is info from my area.
Nice discussion idea by the way.
play safe. have fun.
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Permalink Reply by John Rulli Jr. on
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I would send someone to the knock box for a key. If that don't work and nothing showing I would wait for the keyholder. I would have someone monitor the door and look through exterior windows for any sign of fire.
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Permalink Reply by Smoke Eater on
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Right on DT
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Permalink Reply by Alan Shaw on
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I think we have a big information problem here. The fact that there is conflicting information about the type of room and the location of the room and even the presence of a basement. We need to somehow confirm that the person on scene is in fact the caller. Either we have wrong information from the caller or from the dispatch center. If we are going to wait 15 minutes for a key holder, then we can also investigate these angles.
I live in a townhouse type condo, where each unit has it's own heating equipment, so it is possible that the "furnace room" is inside an apartment, although (as others have said) that would require the caller to be inside the apartment in question. A quick check of some other apartments would answer that question right away.
Back to the question at hand, odor of smoke on the floor, all other apartments checked, no answer at the possibly vacant apartment. Are there heating or air vents in the common hallway, have we checked those as a potential odor pathway? I would force the door and investigate as it is likely the only other potential source. Again this is the best course of action if we satisfy two other questions first, one do we trust ourselves that we actually have that faint odor of smoke? Do can we confirm the above questions about the caller's credibility?
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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on
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Seems the general consensus here is to wait for a key. I do see that and can agree. I do agree with Jack here though and sometimes you don't have the time to wait, and these doors were not real expensive. I'm not advocating busting down doors for the sake of doing so, but there are times when waiting for a key isn't the best option. I have been on calls where we have busted a door because of an EMS issue and have done so to check for fire extension or investigate.
In this case, waiting for a key would not be a bad idea, but I wouldn't wait for a keyholder. If the knox box keys didn't work here, I would force, if anything it gives the landlord a good reason to put a knox box on the building.
Yeah some of the information is lacking, but then again on a fireground you don't have all this time to question the caller, especially when smoke is reported. In this case, the caller only spoke limited English so it was hard to really get a good idea what he did see, he pointed to the apartment door and said he saw smoke.
The furnace room in the basement was quickly to eliminated because there was no basement door. Instead there were 2 furnace rooms upstairs, one we could get into without a key, the other was locked and was adjacent to the apartment with reported smoke coming from it. We did force the apartment door, using a pry bar and screwdriver causing some damage. We did find the water heater in the individual apartment had a leak and water may have gotten in the wiring panel causing the breaker to trip.
One of the services we offer is lockouts and have forced into homes, apartments, etc without having to bust down a door. In this case it is quicker to walk to the pump, grab the toolbox, than to walk across the complex to the knox box. Second unit in was assigned to evacuate the other side of the apartment building, third pump was by the hydrant, ambulance was command while awaiting a bat.
I noticed someone asked about an onsite keyholder. Yes, this complex did have one, but the problem with some on site managers is that they are not always there. For us, if we need a keyholder, dispatch has that info and calls. When we do our inspections we ask for a couple contacts who may be keyholders and if the info about onsite managers isn't provided, they don't get called. The manager saw the lights and came out after hearing the alarm and was able to get us in the locked furnace room.
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