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Bad SOP's on driving
Here is a question about our local SOP's on driving our ambulance. Right now it says that its the driver and crew's discretion to use light and sirens. In otherwords, it's up to us to decide if traffic condition, patient conditions, road conditions etc... warrant the need for lights and sirens.
The proposed change would state that if there is a patient on board the driver MUST use the emergency warning lights on the vehicle. In other words, we would have no discretion on whether we should use lights and/or sirens at all. And typically it would mean that we would always have lights on and then turn on the siren if we felt we needed it.
What are your thoughts and comments on that?
The proposed change would state that if there is a patient on board the driver MUST use the emergency warning lights on the vehicle. In other words, we would have no discretion on whether we should use lights and/or sirens at all. And typically it would mean that we would always have lights on and then turn on the siren if we felt we needed it.
What are your thoughts and comments on that?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Joe Stoltz on
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Bad move. What we were taught in EVOC was: If you turn the emergency lights on, your chances of being in a wreck increase by a factor of 10. So why endanger your lives and that of the patient by operating thw lights when on a non-emergency transport?
Just out of curiosity, who is proposing this change?
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Permalink Reply by Rahn Abbott on
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Oddly enough, it's the members of the department. A little demographics on the department. We have three ambulances, two and a converted suburban actually, that serve a 800 square mile area that is populated by less than 5000 people. Think rural. The members are all local folks who have been on the department for a long time. And that's just how things are done. If there is a pt in the rig the lights are on. For example, we had a pt that we picked up from the nursing home with a PEG tube that came loose. We transported 80 miles, ate lunch while the hospital sewed it back in and transported home. Lights all the way both ways. No sirens just lights.
Anyway, myself and another newer guy to the department who both have full time jobs as fire/EMS elsewhere said this is stupid and won't run lights unless we have to. That upset some of the, we'll just say, some of the seasoned vets on the department. So they are now seeking to make the change so that we have to run that way.
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Permalink Reply by LT34269 on
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Well in the state of NJ if any emergency vechile is responding to an emergency call if the lights are on the siren must be on also. Now are town rules state that a call can be downgraded only by the proper agency officer that is responding. It is like this if a fire call goes out and the fire cheif gets there before the engine and feels that there is no emergecy ( bad battery in a smoke detector ) he will downgrade the call and we flow at the normal flow of traffic. The ems will only downgrade there calls if there is not life threating symptoms which is almost never.
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Oh, Rahn I understand now.
It's for the convenience of the members, mainly the older ones, who are really tired of doing this EMS thing and want to try to minimize the time they're away from home. They are placing their own convenience ahead of their safety or, even more importantly, the safety of the patient.
There's just no reason I can think of, nor any situation, in which you should run lights with a stable patient to the hospital. And absolutely never when returning a patient back home from the H.
It's a disaster in the making. I can just imagine the uproar that would result if someone came to grief in this fashion.
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Permalink Reply by lutan1 on
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The driver has absolute control of everything to do with that vehicle, from use of lights and sirens, directions totake, speed, etc, etc.
Any move away from that is bad news and I would have thought opened up a real can of worms in the legal system...
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OK, thanks guys. I guess I didn't put in the first post exactly what I wanted. I did want your thoughts and comments. I also need to look up case studies, statistics, etc... that I can take to the board and say "this is why it's a bad idea". Something a little more concrete than "Cause Joe Stoltz and and someone named Jojo said so on the internet". It's not that I am doubting you because I too know that it's a greater risk. I need something to take to the board. Where can I get these statistics, case studies, etc...? Thanks again.
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Well, first try doing what I was doing - a Google search for "emergency driving" and so on.
Or, is there a county or regional emergency management office staffed by someone who does emergency vehicle driver training?
Or, on the state level?
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Permalink Reply by lang on
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my company runs hot to the secne then its up to the medic or emt in charge to decide weather to run hot or not to the hospital 95% of the time we go normal speeds into the hospital
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Well, Rahn - if you won't take MY word for it (LOL) thry this:
http://www.usfa.dhs.gov/downloads/pdf/publications/fa-272.pdf
This is the FEMA Emergency Vehicle Safety Initiative FA-274, from 2004. Here's an excerpt from the summary:
"Multiple EMS studies have shown, with the exception of a few conditions, that there is
no statistically significant difference in patient outcomes with emergency driving on
ambulances versus nonemergency driving. It is logical to assume that in many situations
(manpower for EMS, water leak, etc.) the results related to incident outcome
would be duplicated with fire apparatus. St. Louis Fire Department found responding
without lights and sirens reduced its crash rate. There are commercial dispatch programs
available for priority dispatching; or agencies can develop their own specific
questions, similar to those developed by the Salt Lake Valley, Utah, departments."
In a quick scan I didn't see any reference to practices returning from a call; the underlying assumption is that it's non-emergency and therefore lights/sirens are not required, or for that matter desired.
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Thanks Joe. I actually spent several days researching reports and what not. It's interesting that most places want you to pay for their information. I guess that's how they make money. But if you search long enough on the internet most everything is available. Or at least parts of it. I finally found a compilation of reports put together by a guy locally by the Name of Nels Sandal. It was basically a compilation of reports and studies on Ambulance accidents, injuries and fatalities. It covers a lot more than just lights and sirens but there was a lot of good information as well. Not only did it cover all the reports that say you shouldn't use lights and sirens for anything but an emergency, it also covered a report by a guy by the name of Kupas who seemed to indicate the opposite with his reasoning and conclusions backing his thoughts.
I will also add this FEMA document as well. The more ammunition the better. Thanks a million.
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