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Masks on or off in the truck?
On a structure fire call, my captain told me to have my mask on but not on air when I get out of the truck. Of course I will follow his directions, but I was wondering if it's better to mask up before making entry. On some calls, captains got off the truck with their mask on, and their inital size up to dispatch was really difficult to understand, their mask was all foggy, and it's hard to understand their directions. That's just my opinion...brothers and sisters, what do you think?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by cedric sermeus on
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Hello,
we only put on the mask if we need to go inside a place where there is smoke, our masks are seald in a plastic bag so we know that everithing is ok and ready to be used .
to put on the mask it takes less than 5 seconds so why put it on in the truck??
Like you said jou will have fogg on the inside .
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Permalink Reply by Jeremy Talbott on
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We used to have problems with Fogged up masks,not anymore so when my guys come off the back they are in their masks, no reason not to have them on anymore. We can see just fine with them on air or off they do not fog. If they fogged up then I would be against having them on when we can off the Engine or Truck, the officers leave their's off till they/we are about ready to go in.
This is the way we do it, and have done it for the past 4 years we have not run into any problems yet if we had we would look at things, I can tell you we have had some really good saves on some buildings with coming off the engines faster, not sure that 10-15 seconds more would help but it sure hasn't hurt us.
Everyone has their own way of doing things, if visability isn't an issue then I am not sure I can see any other angle of safety I or my fellow department personel have missed.
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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Philly,
The reduced vision is one of several reasons not to mask up in the truck.
As previously discussed, if you get off the rig breathing the SCBA air in a non-IDLH environment, then you're wasting air in a place where you don't need it. That leads to less air available in the IDLH, which is where we need all the fresh air we can get.
If you mask up and don't use the SCBA air, you're using the mask in a way that it's not designed to be used. No matter how well-designed the mask, you're adding unnecessary heat stress, rebreathing your own carbon dioxide, and creating early fatigue.
Those problem aren't regional problems. Compromised vision, rebreathing your own CO2, and inadequate personal size-up happen anywhere firefighters prematurely mask up.
Then there's the issue of doffing a communications headset before exiting the rig, as my department does. You can't wear the mask and hood under a communications headset without compromising communications and probably damaging the comms system. My department has the headsets. We doff the headset, then exit the rig wearing the SCBA with the mask hanging on the neck strap the way the manufacturer designed it.
I still can't get any of the "mask up in the rig" proponents to tell me why they don't just wear the mask for their entire shift if it doesn't create any problems for them.
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Permalink Reply by Jonathan on
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I think some captains are to focused on book knowledge and some times it bites them in the behind, i also get upset with this because you got to think practicaly about it!
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I know very well what freelancing is, and I didn't attack your fire department. I responded to the specifics that you posted.
Your stated that you grabbed a line from another company. It didn't say anything about doing so under orders.
If you are assigned to the backup role, you take the line from the other engine, and you're on the nozzle when Command thinks you're backing them up - as he directed - then you're freelancing. It's rather difficult to back up another company from the nozzle on their line, yanno?
If you think "backup" means "take the nozzle" then you have a very different view of "following orders" than do I. Following orders means following orders exactly, not "well, sort of following orders with my own loose interpretation of those orders:.
I teach NIMS/ICS, I fill a variety of roles within the Command system on a frequent basis, and I have done so for around a quarter of a century. I understand with crystal clarity what freelancing is.
You might want to study the definition of freelancing in a basic NIMS class prior to making the statements you did above.
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Cody, we get off the rig ready to go, too. Our definition of ready to go includes avoiding things that save a few seconds on the front end that also waste minutes of energy and air on the back end, like masking up prematurely.
We run an average of three on our engines and usually four on the truck.
We believe that the best way to save a life is to have an aggressive automatic sprinkler and monitored fire alarm law, backed up with good pre-planning, good size-up, and a risk-benefit analysis prior to entering any structure. We do lots of interior attacks and searches when they are indicated, and we go defensive when that is indicated, too.
We mandate the use of communications headsets in all fire apparatus to reduce hearing damage to the firefighters and improve enroute communications. That means doffing the headset prior to exiting the rig. We exit the rig, do whatever hose stretch is assigned while remaining out of the smoke or other IDLH conditions, then mask up and go do the work.
We have a mix of built out and built up, with a lot of setbacks and streetside greenways. We have a lot of long hose stretches, either horizontally, vertically, or a combination, and we have a lot of dead ends, cul-de-sacs, or gated multistories where we can only get the appratus to one side or part of one side. We also have some streetside stuff with drive-by survey and preconnect stretch possibilities as well.
What I'm hearing you say about being ready to go is telling me that your department is willing to sacrifice your hearing to possibly save a few seconds of mask-up time.
Here's another question for you - what are you guys going to do if the NFPA mandates taking the SCBA out of the cab? There are departments that are putting the SCBA in exterior compartments to focus firefighter's attention on riding in seatbelts to protect from injury in the event of apparatus accidents and in communications headsets to protect your hearing.
My point here is that masking up on the rig has hazards that you don't seem to think are important. I recognize those hazards and believe that having the crew stretch a line on the exterior and not just run into the fire are worth it. I also believe that a department that sacrifices firefighter hearing for the debatable benefits of masking oup on the rig aren't really looking at all aspects of firefighter safety.
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If masking up prior to exiting the rig is crazy for the captain, then it's crazy for the crew. Every member of the crew needs the same level of unobstructed vision when exiting the rig.
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Regardless of how the NFPA standards are derived, and whether your state mandates them for fire departments or not, if you end up in court, guess what the plaintiff's attorney is going to cite as the "reasonable man" standard for fire apparatus design and operation?
There are two things that will be used - the NFPA 1901 apparatus standard and the manufacturer's specifications.
It's not always safe to assume that the way you were taught is correct, either. A lot of firefighters that were taught "correctly" have died because they were more worried about getting masked up in the rig than with wearing their seatbelts. When their rig was in a wreck, some of those firefighters died because their procedures were focused on one hazard or operation to the exclusion of all others.
The NFPA committees are a mix of manufacturers, end-users, researchers, and other representatives. The reason for the manufacturers being members isn't to make them money, whatever you might think. It is to ensure that new standards or changes to existing standards can be accomplished practically. If you think that being NFPA compliant makes the apparatus builders a lot of money, check with the American LaFrance employees at the two plants they just shut down in Pennsylvania and then get back to me.
And...I respectfully disagree with your statement "Nothing wrong with either, just different." If I thought your way wasn't dangerous, I wouldn't have commented. It's not just because of how my current department does it. I've been a member of several different career and volunteer departments that used SCBA for a variety of IDLH conditions...fires, hazmat, confined space rescue, CO alarms, etc. I've also taught firefighter recruits from three different states. Every one of those departments and state fire academies teaches masking up outside the IDLH environment but right before your pre-attack size up and hose stretches are complete.
I sincerely hope that none of your guys ever gets trapped and then runs out of air 5 minutes before RIT gets to him. That's a very real possibility at any structure fire, but it's more likely when you're wasting air pre-entry.
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Look up what WestPhilly and I both posted about EVERY crew member needing to do their own visual sizeup. That's one of many reasons for every crew member to don the facepiece immediately prior to entering the IDLH, and not before.
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I don't just believe that I was taught the right way, I know I was taught the right way. It has been reinforced by over 30 years of successful firefights, hazmat operations, and rescues from hazardous atmospheres including confined spaces. It has been reinforced by studying firefighter safety, including health and wellness studies performed in a proactive, credible manner by people who are experts in scientific methodology. It has been reinforced by networking with dozens of reputable firefighters, fire officers, and fire instructors who have fought hundreds or thousands of fires in their careers. It has been reinforced by studying the manufacturer's recommendations from the people that make and test every major brand of SCBA. It has been reinforced by personal analysis of the many hazards found at fires and other incidents, and how to best protect my firefighters and myself from them.
Most importantly, it has been reinforced by analyzing the LODD deaths of several of my friends and acquaintances. A common thread in those deaths was getting tunnel vision on either getting into action quickly at the expense of stopping for a few seconds to take a look around, and/or getting tunnel vision on one hazard which led to missing one or more other hazards.
There's not a doubt in my mind that masking up in a non-IDLH area prior to entering the IDLH atmosphere is the best option, or that masking up in the rig is a bad idea for several reasons. Several very reputable state and local fire academies and every major SCBA maker agree.
That's pretty good evidence that the way I was trained - and the way I train other firefighters - is the best choice available.
If you don't believe me, use one of your department's atmospheric monitors with the probe inside a SCBA mask, don the mask without hooking up the 2nd stage regulator, and perform a few simulated fireground tasks like stretching a line or carrying and raising a couple of ladders. You'll be stunned at how quickly the inside of the mask will become oxygen-deficient.
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Cody,
That's still tunnel vision (literally as well as figuratively) on one hazard at while ignoring several others.
We fight real fire around here, too. We don't pretend we're on TV or in the movies, and we don't breathe smoke...nor do we waste our air breathing it in the rig. We don't bring bogus things like "Hollywood" into the conversation, either.
We do make sure that we aren't wasting our air in a non-hazardous location, performing exterior activities where there is no smoke. Bottom line - if you're breathing SCBA air in areas well away from any hazardous atmosphere, you're wasting it. If you're wearing the mask but not breathing the air, don't take my word for it...use an atmospheric monitor that will prove that you're breathing yourself into an oxygen-deficient microclimate in the mask prior to masking up. Then...tell me how wasting your air or intentionally putting yourself into an oxygen-deficient atmosphere makes you "safer"??? Or...how putting a respiratory toxin like RainX INSIDE YOUR MASK makes you "safer"??? Is that hardheaded? I don't think there's any doubt.
Another sad fact in the fire service will be found if you look at the LODD reports involving vehicle accidents. Virtually all of them were from departments that had never had a vehicle accident LODD prior to...their first one. It's like hurricanes or tornadoes...just because you didn't have one yesterday doesn't mean that you won't have one tomorrow. Ihope you don't, but "we've always gotten away with it" isn't a reliable way to improve safety.
And...you can train on a bad practice all you want, but it won't make it a good practice. It will just make it a bad habit.
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Permalink Reply by Adam Mardis on
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For me I will kindly disagree with you on the aspect of Hazmat when you're the first arriving unit. I agree with the aspects of the cold zone and so forth, but there has been little to no recon done up to that point and anything extra saftey wise you can give yourself until certain things are identified is the way to go in my opinion. As far as your other comments I have read I think you're pretty much spot on.
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