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Masks on or off in the truck?
On a structure fire call, my captain told me to have my mask on but not on air when I get out of the truck. Of course I will follow his directions, but I was wondering if it's better to mask up before making entry. On some calls, captains got off the truck with their mask on, and their inital size up to dispatch was really difficult to understand, their mask was all foggy, and it's hard to understand their directions. That's just my opinion...brothers and sisters, what do you think?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Robert Owens on
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Well I can guarantee you if you get hurt in my FD not wearing proper safety gear your claim will get denied.
We have had several instances were guys have gotten injured on the fireground and becuase of PPE hang ups there claim was denied. We even had a guy go into cardiac arrest on duty perfroming his 1 hour mandatory PT and his claim was denied (thankfully his crew was there right beside him or he would have died). 3 years later he is still trying to go through the appeals process.
I would love to live in a world were things like this did not happen but workers comp does not want to spend money and they will do anything they can to no pay a claim.
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FInally someone who gets that smoke is horrible for you.
There is a book called In the Mouth of the Dragon by Deborah Wallace that should be required reading for all firefighters. Reading this book might just change your mind about when you should mask up.
BTW cyanide is what they use to kill people in the gas chamber....you really wanna breath that?
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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If the claim can be documented as happening on duty, there should be no way for worker's comp to deny it. Workers comp is legally obligated to pay for claims documented as arising out of the injured person's employment.
And..."proper safety gear" is task-specific. Does your department define exactly what "proper safety gear" is for each and every task members of your department perform while on duty? If not, then "proper safety gear" will likely be found "vague and unenforceable" if the injured members take their cases to court.
Not filing the "1st Report of Injury" claim within the mandatory 24 hours is by far the most common way for worker's comp claims to be denied. If you get hurt on duty and don't file the claim within 24 hours, it doesn't matter what PPE you were - or were not - wearing.
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Robert, I call shenannigans on that statement - dude, we ALL get that smoke is horrible for you. The discussion goes to when to mask up, not if smoke is bad for you or not. Over-the-top statements like that do zero to support your position.
And interestingly, the guys who are masked up but not breathing the SCBA air (i.e. RIT,) are the ones who are breathing the most cyanide, not the firefighters that stretch lines or do a size-up sans the mask, because the people that spend a minute or two in the yard without the mask aren't getting the cumulative smoke exposures that a masked-but-not-on-air RIT team or an unmasked pump operator gets.
Those are exactly the people that most of the "mask up on the rig" advocates are talking about, because most of them don't go on air before exiting the cab. If your department does that, then you're wasting air in non-IDLH environments and cutting into the safety margin for firefighters operation IN the IDLH environment.
If you are masking up on the rig and breathing the SCBA air, then you're wasting the air in a non-IDLH environment. You are the guy who thought I was silly for questioning you about drivers not masking up - you stated that they weren't in IDLH, remember? Crews masking up in the yard aren't in IDLH, either. Neither is a standby RIT team, but they are the ones wearing the mask but not on air, so guess who gets the most cyanide? That's right, RIT and the pump operator, because the interior firefighters are wearing their SCBAs and are protected from the chemicals in the smoke.
What do you guys do when you exit the structure...take of your mask just like every other firefighter in America, right? What are you breathing then?
And...if your department isn't monitoring EVERY firefighter at EVERY fire scene for CO and cyanide exposure, masking up on the rig is nothing except a false sense of security.
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Robert,
Per my answer to your post discussing firefighters and occupational exposure to cyanide in smoke, a RIT team that is masked up but not on air is at a lot higher risk of cyanide exposure than firefighters that stretch a line to the front door or do a 360 recon and then mask up.
If you're wearing the mask but not on air, you're potentially getting a much higher cumulative exposure to cyanide - just like not wearing the mask at all. The mask only protects you if it has cylinder air pressurizing it.
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Well my friend you are telling theroy and I am telling fact based on what has happend to our guys.
And yes we define specfic levels of PPE for each incident and for each riding position on the apparatus.
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Look brother I just don't buy into it just like you do not buy into masking up in the truck.
I used to be one of those guys kneeling in the front yard back in the beggining of my vollie days and when I got hired on my captain wanted us to maks up in the rig. I was against it at first.....but once I began to do it I wondered why I had not been doing this in the first place.
We have had 8 fires in 3 cycles and I have done it just like every fire for the last 5 years and I am fine just like the 500 other firefighters I work with.
Like I said befor when I go to Mcdonalds I expect they be ready to serve me, when I go to a fire I should be ready to go when I get there not finished getting dressed in there yard. Just my opinion.
BTW had a car fire at my part time FD today I came off with my mask on....it went great.
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Permalink Reply by lutan1 on
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I wonder how many people have ever had the mask on, but off air and either have or nearly have entered a structure forgetting they were not on air....
I reckon there'd be a few.
For me, mask off.
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I'm not telling you theory at all - look up the Virginia Worker's Compensation statute here:
I read the entire document, and nowhere does it reference denial of claim due to using safety equipment or not. Who denied the claims for your firefighters - the employer or the State Worker's Compensation Commission? If it's the employer, your guys have an obvious route of appeal that might not have been used yet. There are many precedents in Worker's Comp case law that require the employer to cover claims arising out of employment, regardless of PPE. That's fact, not theory.
Here is what Virginia law says on the topic - note the absence of any qualifiers regarding PPE or safety procedures: here
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So McDonalds is supposed to know what meal you want to order and have it ready when you walk in the front door? If that's the case, fine. If not, then it's a bad analogy. When you walk into McDonalds, you aren't dragging hoselines, doing a 360 looking for hazards, utility connections in the bushes, or subtle smoke conditions inside the 3rd floor windows.
SCBA masks can and do get scratched up, smoked up, and sustain UV damage over time. All of those reduce visibility in even the best conditions. Those things, by definition, reduce visibility.
If smoke and getting into action 20 seconds sooner were the only two problems at the scene, then I'd buy into your way of doing it. However, smoke isn't the only hazard, and as I've previously stated, I'd rather be able to have completely unrestricted vision for as long as possible.
You keep on trying to be faster, and I'll keep on trying to be safer.
Ditto for assuming that it's safe for RIT to stand in the yard with their mask on but not breathing cylinder air...that doesn't protect them from any smoke that may be present outside the structure any more than mine that don't mask up, and mine don't have the extra heat stress that wearing a non-protective mask generates.
A large percentage of evaporative cooling in humans occurs through the head, which includes the face. If you mask up and don your hood, you're starting to build heat stress in the RIT prior to them actually doing anything.
With heat stress being a predominate firefighter health problem and LODD contributor, intentionally doing things that add to heat stress don't make sense. Claiming smoke as the primary hazard doesn't change that fact. Even if heat stress doesn't kill you acutely, heat stress has well-documented cumulative effects.
http://www.bartlettinc.com/filelibrary/Heat_Stress_Training.pdf
http://clfp.com/regulatory%20materials/Worker%20Heat%20Stress/Super...
and especially this one, which is the result of fire service-specific research
http://www.fireservicemanagement.com/heatstress.html
Wearing the mask and hood without being on air violates the first principle of reducing heat stress - Removing Clothing!
Masking up before you absolutely have to also unnecessarily adds heat stress, and heat stress kills a lot more of us than smoke does. Check the annual LODD statistics that routinely report 50% of annual U.S. firefighter LODDs from heart attacks - most of which are heat stress and cardiovascular coagulopathy-related to the small number of LODDs from smoke.
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Permalink Reply by Jacob on
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Our "1st out for a structure" truck is a 1985 FMC...It has 2 front seats and 3 passenger rear partial enclosed bench seat...The driver is the opperator...the guy in the passenger seat is going to be command, and they 3 in the back are to be masked when you get off the truck...if there is a fire , then you hook up to the tank
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The mask limits visibility. They are scratched and smoked up after even a little use, no mater how well you take care of them. Even if the lens is pristine, the rest of the mask limits peripheral and downward vision.
If you breathe the cylinder air as you exit the rig, you're wasting air designed for IDLH in a non IDLH atmosphere. If you have the mask on and don't go on the cylinder air, you're rebreathing some of your own carbon dioxide, which makes your muscles lactic before you even enter the structure. That makes you prone to early fatigue and shortens your effective work time and effort.
Either way, if you wear your mask in a non IDLH atmosphere, you're adding unnecessary heat stress from the mask, the hood, and from re-breathing your exhaled air. In a profession where heat stress is the #1 killer, we don't need to add unnecessary heat stress, ever.
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