Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Anfos on May 27, 2008 at 9:48am

Looks a pretty straight forward job. Firstly, assess for hazards. I agree, most likely to be leaking from car so mitigate with charged hose line. Isolate/disconnect battery, and ensure train is safe.
Next, Stabilise the vehicle. This is not negotiable. A vehicle involved in any impact is now subject to a whole range of different stresses and the car WILL move as soon as more people are in it (ie paramedics treating patient/s) and rescue tools are being used.
Once given the go ahead to remove patient, complete glass management, full passenger side removal and roof removal to access driver and remove both with use of spine boards. The more space we create around the patient, the better. As all this is happening, we must continue to monitor our stabilisation to ensure the car is still steady, and adjust where neccessary. Consideration may also be given to moving the train to better access the driver.
I say this is an easy job, because the car is out in the open, not under the train! I have seen on several occasions where a train has hit a car, and then pushed the car along the tracks to a station where the car has become wedged between train and platform. Extrication from there presents quite a challenge!

Permalink Reply by lutan1 on June 4, 2008 at 7:40am

definitely a good point about being out in the open versus underneath!!!

Permalink Reply by Oldman on June 17, 2008 at 9:42am

I did a little retouch of the photo, and have some observations. To me, this is no different than any other collision we might face on a highway, and shouldn't necessarily be over-complicated.

1. What are the hazards? Again, no different than say if the locomotive was a tractor trailer (18 wheeler) vs car. The diesel fuel tank is at the center bottom of the loco, just like the saddle tank on a truck. The probability of tank rupture would be extremely low. The potential leaks from the car... again handled as any other incident. Pull a line as a precaution.

2. Extrication? Again it appears no different than on the highway. Go ahead and stabilize what would be the drivers side (in the US) with cribbing, jacks etc. Again, I don't believe we have to get real exotic and elaborate. Move the loco? I don't think so! The loco appears to be helping to support the car. Use it. Another consideration, in Texas, (I cannot speak for other Countries) a fatality collision is investigated as a crime scene and moving the train is contaminating the scene. Besides, there appears to be ample room to work on extrication. Remove the roof, doors, etc. the same as any other collision.

3. One thing I didn't notice anyone considering. If we look at the rail car behind the engine, might we be dealing with a potential mass causality situation? Did anyone think to check on the passengers on the train. Consider this a bus on the highway. Again, not much different.

In the US, as soon as the train comes to a stop, the engineer would immediately notify company officials, so their safety personnel and police investigators would already be in route before we arrive. In looking at the photo, this appears to have occurred on a single line, so the probability of another train approaching is almost non-existent. The fact that the train has stopped automatically triggers the signals for oncoming trains and alerts the yards of a problem. We use a ladder or a set of jumper cables across both rails when working collisions or fires without a train involved. It gets quick response from railroad officials.

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• Traincar2.jpg, 114 KB

Permalink Reply by Anfos on June 26, 2008 at 9:38pm

I agree with you there 'Oldman". in this scenario, it is a fairly standard operation, not unlike being on a highway, and all your points are well made. Let's not over-complicate these things.

Permalink Reply by Asst Chief Tim Cook on January 30, 2009 at 10:49pm

When you hear Train/TT vs car you often overthink things.They are ALL vehicles. Just the Train/TT are REALLY HEAVY vehicles.Most of the Rail/car collisions I have studied show the train tends to drive the lighter vehicle into the ground.The "ballast"(rock)around the ties holds a fair amount of liquid and with a PW extingusher with a little Af3 applied to any spills you can do a pretty good job of vapor suppression.The locomotive can be temporarily secured with some simple wood wedges.I would regard this particular car as stable with a minimum of cribbing due to damage and position.A couple step chocks and a few pieces of 4x4 should do nicely.MAKE SURE you have a CONFIRMED TRAIN STOP on the line and get that dispatchers (train)full name and time of train stop order.Have your dispatch log this. And if you can, post a FD lookout on the rail,with flares,one mile (further if it's hi speed rail)either side of the incident.Cheap insurance. Think twice,work once.

Permalink Reply by Rob on February 14, 2009 at 3:23am

First, ask how we got a train in our district! Don't have that headache. Not even any tracks in our district, so if a train ends up in our district we got bigger problems.

Now if I were to respond to this hopefully we would have engine, rescue, and medic right off the bat. Based on potential for difficult rescue/recovery I would not be opposed to a second engine and second rescue. Need to communicat with teh railroad to confirm other trains are not inbound. Secure the scene. Check for signs of life. Determine rescue vs. recovery. If rescue and weather permitting call the bird and set an LZ since you will most certainly have a prolonged extrication and a multi-system trauma that will need immediate transport to a trauma center. Check with engineer of train to ensure it is not going to move. Stabilize vehicle. Access patient. Extricate Patient. Yada, yada...we all know the drill at that point.

If it is a recovery, same steps minus the helicopter and have crews continue response non-er once it is determined to be a recovery.

Permalink Reply by Isaac Frazier on February 2, 2010 at 9:25pm

We would (or did last week) send 1 squad (heavy with pump), 1 medic, 1 ladder (backup jaws) and a batt chief.....heres the pic from last week to give an idea

Permalink Reply by Joe on February 3, 2010 at 1:54am

Well first my department would radio dispatch and ask them to notify CSX of the situation. Next we will see if we will be in danger of any hazards cargo ( scene size up). Then cheek the patent to see what the injuries are if any. Now we would start the extraction process.

Permalink Reply by Tony P on May 20, 2010 at 12:06am

One thing about the incident pictured by Lutan - this one looks very like a fatal, right-hand drive here, and that one is in my State.

Being with a non heavy-rescue brigade, we would only be assisting the rescue guys, not doing all the work. So, for us, being first on scene, it would be a quick look to see if we could find anyone alive in the car, while also worrying about passangers and the driver (the train driver is considered a casualty). I don't know how the braking ability of those diesel trains compares to the suburban electrics that I see, but we were told at a rail training session last Sunday that even from a train vs. pedestrian we can expect some casualties on the train. People get thrown forward, limbs can be broken.

Another thing we were told at the training session. Even though the driver will most likely have hit his/her emergency button on the two-way radio, and may well help us put the rail jumper down which will trigger the automated signals, that we shouldn't trust that there will not be another train coming. The advise to us? Get a person out along the rail-line to signal any oncoming train - in any direction a train may approach. Such a person to be sent about a kilometre along the track in suburbia to allow braking distance for those big heavy things; I'd say that country trains may well be travelling faster and so need a longer distance. And such people do not, of course, stand on the lines to signal a train... The correct signal to stop a trainhere in Victoria is to stand with both arms streched straight up above your head - possibly the same over the rest of Australia, but everyone should check their own signaling requirement. At night time I'd suggest two people, one with a good light to shine on the person with arms up in the air?

Permalink Reply by lutan1 on May 20, 2010 at 12:08am

Initially alive, but died later on, post extrication....

Permalink Reply by Mike "Lapo" Lapotasky on May 26, 2010 at 10:50am

Rail chocks are a bit expensive but are worth having if a struck vehicle is still on the tracks. Electro-diesel engines run for their entire life unless they need to shut down for service. Chances are they will NOT shut down the engine. If they disconnect and move forward the brakes on each car can be set.

Permalink Reply by Mike "Lapo" Lapotasky on May 26, 2010 at 11:01am

Okay Bill...I have to take some issue with your statements here. Leaking fluids are not just a hazard if they burn. Vapors, chemical exposures, splash risk, and the often overlooked environmental impact is part of your responsible size-up. Also, I know nobody who box cribs with 2x4s. 4x4s are the weapon of choice. My company will use 6x6s for SUVs or other high riding vehicles. The train engineer will inform you if there are any hazards on the train. Your biggest concern with the train is the high-voltage that is present. If the train is in contact with the train in any way, first make sure the engineer has verified that the power lines have not been compromised.

My recommendation for everyone is to contact the ESU or PD for each of the rail lines and scehdule a training instead of speculating.

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