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requirments/ liabilaties for for firefighter on a fire ground
I am on a volunteer dept. in wisconsin we have a few member on our dept. that have no certifacations. Due those members belong on the fire ground or not?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Fireyladd - Retired Chief Sharp on
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A certification is a piece of paper that only stands for a level of training achievement. Start your fires with it. It has to be combined with actual Department experience and involvement. You can have years of actual experience and no certifications. No big deal. Its what you do and are trained to do that matters. If you have State certifications such as NFPA FF I or higher its good to achieve them. Comes down to what your Dept policy is. Get all the training you can get whether certifications or actual.
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Permalink Reply by Alan on
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I couldn't agree more with you Chief. My question would be how long have those members with no certifications been with the fire dept. They may have more experience than some members with the certifications.
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Permalink Reply by Tony P on
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As the guys above have said, it all depends on what experience these people have. If a person has no experience and no certificates, then I don't think they should be on the fireground. After that it gets fuzzy.
We insist that recruits go through what we call 'wildfire minimum' before they are issued pagers and allowed to turn out. It takes about six months at one night a week and a few Sundays. This 'wildfire minimum' gives people some paper knowledge about wildfire behaviour and suppression, communications and safety. Then they can start to learn how to put it all together on the fireground.
The 'wildfire minimum' is what is required by our Fire Service (a State wide service) before any person is allowed to be on Strike Team crewing for large wildfires. It provides a good starting point, the trainees get a background in what fires are and how they can behave; they learn about the equipment we use, and how to use it; they learn about PPE and personal safety on the fireground; they learn how to read maps and use radios. Does this training make a person a firefighter? No, it starts them safely on the journey.
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Permalink Reply by Art "ChiefReason" Goodrich on
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Better questions to ask are; you are a member of that fire department:
What do YOU believe qualifies a person to take an active role on the fireground?
What do you think constitutes a liability on the fireground?
What are your state's requirements?
What are your department's requirements?
If you already have people on the fireground that you feel shouldn't be, then it's too late to ask the question.
Having SOGs would be a good place to start to answer those kinds of questions.
TCSS.
Art
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Permalink Reply by Chief Tal Mong on
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In our department, it is manditory that each member complete the basic firefighter training through the State of Ohio. After they complete that, we want each of them to complete NIMS 100,200,700, and be trained at a minimum operations level hazmat. They also must have at a minimum, the number of hours required for recertification every three years for the State requirments. Contact your State Fire Marshall's Office, they will give you the requirments for each firefighter, that will answer your own question. As far as a liabiltiy, that will be up to the department heads or who ever makes the decissions for your department when they have to answer the questions from a lawyer, on why they did something, or maybe why they didn't do something if they were not trained and have the cridentials to even be at an incident. No matter how many years they may have been on the department. Check the laws in your State!
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Naw:
You know, I wish we had a "quote" feature or the last reply goes to the end of the line.
Notice how fractured and all over the place the discussion gets when you can just chime in anywhere?
I guess I will start using BOLD ITALICS to quote a poster.
It makes it difficult for the poster to know who is talking to who, which might explain why the tone gets a little heated sometimes.
Sorry for the confusion, Tony.
And Paul; you are like a charter member here. Don't give up hope.
TCSS.
Art
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Permalink Reply by Moose on
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Correct...If there is an injury to any one of these firefighters who have no training than OSHA will come to investigate and ask for the training records of the injured firefighters...if there are none than the department gets investigated for allowing an un-trained firefighter into a building and so on and so forth...
Our SOP's are simply stated...after joining the department the member has up to one year to get his/her firefighter I training. Than they are taken at drills and go through single company operations modules until the officer checks them out on air packs, and interior firefighting.
Is this enforced all the time? Nope.
Why? Because of the Explorer's we have joining the ranks. When an explorer serves their 4 year stint in the post than joins the department at 18, they are voted in right away instead of the one month waiting period for background checks and arson checks, AND...they are usually aloud to pack up and fight fire...
Do I agree with this? Yes and No...It should be under extremely monitored conditions such as overhaul only with an officer or approved senior firefighter. Should they be allowed to enter the building on the initial attack line? No...Not until they have formal Firefighter I training, than they go in with a senior firefighter or line officer and get the experience.
Its all about experience, taking what you learned from books and applying it to real life situations and getting valuable hands on training.
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Should there be in inquiry after an injury, or worse, the person in charge of the department may very well be asked a series of questions about the qualifications for that person. I am not certain, but I believe the OSHA standard states that the person must be trained to undertake a task prior to being assigned the task. Please don't beat me about the head and shoulders with the standard, I am not a fan of them all. My point is, they are a tool that can be used against you in these types of cases. Ultimately, someone within the department needs to make the decision as to whether or not someone is "qualified". There should be written guidelines detailing the requirements. You can have an excellent in-house training program, rivaling the training done else where. Just because there is not "certification" associated with it, doesn't mean that you are not well trained.
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My big thing is, I believe that the levels of Firefighter I & II should be like the EMT license...You should have to pass both a practical and written NYS exam in order to receive your "License" as a Firefighter I. Than recert every 3-5 years with another practical and written test. If you dont have the license, you dont fight the fire. I know there are a lot of details that would need to be addressed and it wouldnt happen overnight but STILL, it would be better for the firefighters to receive re certification training every 3 years...keep it fresh in your head and learn any newer curriculum that might have been introduced into the training as well. Just my Honest Opinion though, so please dont beat me!! LOL
Stay Safe
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Permalink Reply by Tom on
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I belong to a Volunteer Fire Dept. New members join,then go for training. While they are waiting to go to the fire academy they are permitted to ride and answer alarms.They do not go in to working fires,but act as "go-fers" and help in any way they can. We try to pair them up with a trained member,not just on the fireground but at the house as well.This gives them a chance to learn while they wait to go to school. We do encourage them to attend FF-1 ASAP.
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Moose:
Buddy, I got your back.
I agree that there should be continuing education that is verifiable and useful.
I think we have a lot of overlap and redundancy, so if the organizations that have our "interests" at heart really want to do something for us, they can learn to play nicer together, put down their egos, share control and give us something that will improve our lot.
Absolutely; there should be measurable performance with all firefighters. There should be a minimum that, if not met, will not allow people to join and will remove people who fail to meet it.
Oh, no; it will be the death of the fire service. No; it will result in fewer deaths.
When the service is cleansed of the "good ole boys" and there are standards and measures, then maybe those who were hesitant to join will see value in the service once again.
IMHO.
Art
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