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Instructor at the end of his rope
Let me start by saying I need to vent a few things, and apologize to everyone for having to read.. :-) Secondly, I'm sure this is a problem that's not specific to me. If it is, I'll be really surprised. I'd appreciate if y'all weighed in on this, good or bad (I can take a few critics, but please don't be brutal).
Our department is all volunteer, with about 30 members and 5 cadets. We make 150-200 runs a year. I have been in the fire service 6 years, and I currently serve as the department training officer (I'm also first assistant chief). I'm probably the most "certified" person on our department. I am a certified Indiana instructor 2-3. We meet once a month for training, usually lasting a couple hours.
First Issue: Attendance
I put in a lot of time and effort planning training for the department. However, attendance is usually less than stellar. Out of the approximately 30 members we have, we're lucky to get 10 to show up on training night. Of those 10, maybe 2 or 3 actually pay attention to me. I suppose I could do a better job of keeping reigns on the class, but it's hard to do when they A. don't give you respect as an instructor, and B. give you little more as a chief officer. According to SOGs, there is a minimum percentage of trainings you have to make, but this is not enforced (much like what's in the rest of the SOG manual). It's something that sits on a shelf unused 99.5% of the time. I'd love to enforce this more, but I can't find a way to enforce it fairly (for the guys who work swing shifts or are not home in the evenings). Granted, I'm single and have more free time than most. A couple hours a month to sit and pay attention (and not grab-ass) isn't too much to ask, at least in my opinion.
Second Issue: Hands On Skills
Everyone constantly is wanting more hands on training. Hands on, hands on.. that's all I hear. I fully understand the importance of getting out there and learning by doing, but what I can't get across to the students is that sometime you have to do a bit of classroom "setup" before you get to the skills. It tickles me because there has been times they've tried to do the hands on skills with no pre-plan on how things are going to go. It ususally ends up in a cluster@#$% trying to accomplish the skill. Yet they don't see my point of the initial classroom prereq. Also, how many times can a person cut a hole in a ventilation prop before it gets old? Another thing that gripes me about the folks wanting hands on: a good 1/3 of the schedule last year involved some sort of hands on skill, yet even when the skills were slated to be hands on, I still didn't get attendance. I just can't figure them out....
Third Issue: Family Respect
My father is also on this department, and has been on there since I was in Spiderman underwear. Ironically, I actually outrank him (he swore he'd never become an officer), he's the second assistant chief. Lots of the younger members look up to him, and he is a very knowledgable guy. He even has several certifications himself. I am proud to be his son, enjoy working side by side with him on the department, and have learned many things from him.
However...
I don't know if he does it just to give me a hard time, or if he really tries to question my methods when I teach. But he tends to undermine my authority as an instructor in the middle of class. The younger members get a kick out of he and I arguing back and forth. I know I'm right, yet he tries to sidestep textbook logic with "that's now how WE do it HERE", making a big scene, and then I lose the class.
My beef with that is not that my dad is giving me a hard time (though that does bug me), but what kind of example is he setting for the younger members? If I can't get any respect from my own father, how much am I going to get from the rest of the membership? Not to mention, we're both chief officers, and both SHOULD be leading by example.
The guy is half the reason I'm here, how do I tell him nicely to quit challenging me (especially in front of students), when I'm trying to teach the "right" way, instead of the "this is how we do it here" way?
Thoughts, gripes, questions, similarities, differences anyone?
Our department is all volunteer, with about 30 members and 5 cadets. We make 150-200 runs a year. I have been in the fire service 6 years, and I currently serve as the department training officer (I'm also first assistant chief). I'm probably the most "certified" person on our department. I am a certified Indiana instructor 2-3. We meet once a month for training, usually lasting a couple hours.
First Issue: Attendance
I put in a lot of time and effort planning training for the department. However, attendance is usually less than stellar. Out of the approximately 30 members we have, we're lucky to get 10 to show up on training night. Of those 10, maybe 2 or 3 actually pay attention to me. I suppose I could do a better job of keeping reigns on the class, but it's hard to do when they A. don't give you respect as an instructor, and B. give you little more as a chief officer. According to SOGs, there is a minimum percentage of trainings you have to make, but this is not enforced (much like what's in the rest of the SOG manual). It's something that sits on a shelf unused 99.5% of the time. I'd love to enforce this more, but I can't find a way to enforce it fairly (for the guys who work swing shifts or are not home in the evenings). Granted, I'm single and have more free time than most. A couple hours a month to sit and pay attention (and not grab-ass) isn't too much to ask, at least in my opinion.
Second Issue: Hands On Skills
Everyone constantly is wanting more hands on training. Hands on, hands on.. that's all I hear. I fully understand the importance of getting out there and learning by doing, but what I can't get across to the students is that sometime you have to do a bit of classroom "setup" before you get to the skills. It tickles me because there has been times they've tried to do the hands on skills with no pre-plan on how things are going to go. It ususally ends up in a cluster@#$% trying to accomplish the skill. Yet they don't see my point of the initial classroom prereq. Also, how many times can a person cut a hole in a ventilation prop before it gets old? Another thing that gripes me about the folks wanting hands on: a good 1/3 of the schedule last year involved some sort of hands on skill, yet even when the skills were slated to be hands on, I still didn't get attendance. I just can't figure them out....
Third Issue: Family Respect
My father is also on this department, and has been on there since I was in Spiderman underwear. Ironically, I actually outrank him (he swore he'd never become an officer), he's the second assistant chief. Lots of the younger members look up to him, and he is a very knowledgable guy. He even has several certifications himself. I am proud to be his son, enjoy working side by side with him on the department, and have learned many things from him.
However...
I don't know if he does it just to give me a hard time, or if he really tries to question my methods when I teach. But he tends to undermine my authority as an instructor in the middle of class. The younger members get a kick out of he and I arguing back and forth. I know I'm right, yet he tries to sidestep textbook logic with "that's now how WE do it HERE", making a big scene, and then I lose the class.
My beef with that is not that my dad is giving me a hard time (though that does bug me), but what kind of example is he setting for the younger members? If I can't get any respect from my own father, how much am I going to get from the rest of the membership? Not to mention, we're both chief officers, and both SHOULD be leading by example.
The guy is half the reason I'm here, how do I tell him nicely to quit challenging me (especially in front of students), when I'm trying to teach the "right" way, instead of the "this is how we do it here" way?
Thoughts, gripes, questions, similarities, differences anyone?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Skunk on
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I know I'm not a super great instructor, but I'd like to think I'm not boring and monotone either. I to try to keep things somewhat light and fun, all the while engaging the students.
While I may come off that way based on my posts, I don't think of myself as a cert hound. I would take all the classes I've taken even if there was no piece of paper or state cert at the end. I take them to honestly learn more about the job, so that I can do it better, safer, and more efficient. Again, I advocate continuing education. It just so happens that around here, the main way to get that is to take the certification classes..
I agree 100%
and in no way was I saying you were monotone but remembering a exp I had in the past with a by the Book teacher who was Monotone as well.. It was only time in my life I drank Coffee lol
I was just giving you things to look and watch out for while you are teaching and just by getting on here asking I think there is no possible way you could be a bad teacher at all but just make sure you are not trying to hard and in doing so putting everyone to sleep lol
Only you know if you are or not..
For the Classes, I agree I enjoy taking them rather I get some Stamped tissue @ the end of the class or not but not everyone is wired that way and even the mention of a Class room atmosphere is like a rectal exam to some firefighters and they will avoid it at all cost until you make them go or give them a reason to attend or make them think they are missing out somehow.
Was not Bagging on you @ all Jake sorry if it came off that way :)
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Permalink Reply by Jake Luker on
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It's all good.. :-), Brother...
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Permalink Reply by Michael Vito on
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Next times he pipes up just ask him if he would like to assist in front of the class lol
I got an idea.... Sometimes old dogs want a piece of the pie on it. Is it possible you can give your Dad some portion of the topics, well not all. Depending on the topics, you can give some topics that is known for his specialties. Still, as a training officer you still run the show even behind the curtain. (that is ... give him the course outline and you need to know what / how is going through the topic.
I would agree with Captain Schlags and others. Pizza at the end of the training. Is either your the one giving them for treats (since your single) or make you students to pass the hat. At the end of the training, that is my favorite part watching them eat and drink to relax after the hard work. Talking & laughing about if they done a good drill and so on....
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Permalink Reply by Robert on
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I would personally say that your father is a bit intimidated and/or jealous by your rank. While he may still be proud. I had a similar situation with me being military and him not being so, plus add on the military. Anyway I would approach your father about this if it bothers you. As far as making hands on training, Well what is your procedures and policy's about training. I know that we are required to attend so many meetings a year.
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Permalink Reply by Sam S. on
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I can say you are definately not alone with the problem of attendance at training. I am one of two training officers on a department the same size as yours with an average call volume of 100 runs a year. In the last year the officers of our department have changed the SOG's to address the issue of attendance not only at training but also on calls. We have it set up that each member must make a minimum of 25% of the calls for the year and attend at LEAST 36 hrs of training each year. Now to explain we have 4 meetings a month, (1 business, 2 training, 1 maintenance, with the option of the extra week some months as a make up training) Each quarter of the year we print off a list of our members and where they are at with theyre attendance. This list is also emailed out to all members so they can keep track of it on theyre own and thus have no excuse if they are short on hrs at the end of the year. To enforce this we have writen a section in our SOG's that clearly outlines the requirements AND it clearly outlines the consequences of not meeting the requirements. We have sent out 9 letters so far asking for a resignation from some members that did not meet this standard and have also sent a few warnings out to those that have come close. Our policy is if you are short for the year it is the individual members responsobility to contact a training officer and set up any needed make up, we also offer several times a year make up sessions on the weekends (generally a saturday with at least 6 hrs or training) Just some basic ideas to maybe help your attendance problems that we have tried and have seen some improvement - Let members with a nack for a certain skill run a training, dont put the pressure on just yourself to teach all the time it gets heavy after awhile. This idea gets people involved and also gives to the "hands on". Set up competition during your training sessions (we are all competitive) it gets the members out and learning but also creates an enviroment that makes guys want to improve and learn better tactics to win. I can understand the "most certified" mentality, I have a stack of certs that make the phone book look sad, however you cant let this get to your head when teaching, I have found the older generation sees this mentality as offensive to them and they get theyre feathers in a bunch. Its hard enough to get any change to begin much less if the defenses of the older membership are already up. Its not an easy job and many nights after teaching a class I find myself asking why I even bother but myself, like you want to bring a positive safe change to the department. It takes alot of time and effort but take happiness in the small changes and eventually they will all add up. Try talking to your dad and let him know how you honestly feel when he gives you a hard time during a class, it sounds like he might just understand if you are honest and up front with him. Good luck and just remember your not the only one facing these challenges its happening in 100's of departments all over the country and just maybe if we all share some ideas we can keep making the small wins that will add up to big change. Stay safe and keep tryin.
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Permalink Reply by John Schander on
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The biggest issue you are facing is not lack of attendence or the undermining of your authority it's that you have absolutely no way of enforcing any rules or discipline. Until you can provide consequences for the members lack of participation,( write ups, suspensions, etc. ) you are going to continue to have problems. It may only take one or two people being disciplined to get the message across.
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Permalink Reply by Dennis Brown on
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Well you and your dad need to go some where and talk private and hammer this thing out you will never change his thinking what way it should be done i know my father done it to me and he had 40 years in the department so now and then i let him give me addvice on the way they handle it but to interupt you in class like that is not right and ask for him to hold his comments until after you have done your class and for the other guys well you have to get more stern with them and let them know who is in charge you are a chief
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Permalink Reply by Derek R. on
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OUCH...brutal.....but you know what?... I kinda agree with it. If nothing gets done about people not attending trainings, I, personally, don't want to be the guy who gets partnered with him/her. That's putting MY life at risk and I want absolutely NO part of that thank you. Just imagine.....you and the ill-trained partner go upstairs to find the fire.........you with nozzle and him with hooligan tool.......you see the signs (which you've been trained for) and he doesn't as he bulls through the door and.....BOOM(backdraft). Now...who wants to be teamed up with "mr. i don't need training". And I agree with an above comment regarding the "hero" role. Unfortunately some justy want to "look cool" or whatever. Very unfortunate. We have those in our dept. as well..and guess what......they direct traffic.....haul hose......set up porta-tanks..etc. you get the idea. Take the hero aspect away from them. Make them understand that its not about the look.....its about the job. Play right or don't play at all. That's what momma always said. And yes...family is family.....and work is work. Have to separate the two. Talk to your DAD first.....then to your fellow officer. Then to the chief. good luck.
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Hey...here's a thought.......Maybe he's trying to provoke you into discussion or debate in front of the class for purposes of getting THEIR brains working. Because you know as well as I do that when a debate comes up..EVERYone has an opinion. But no matter what...If you know you are right...stress it and stick to it but at the sane time get the others to give their thoughts on who they think is right and why. Then say that you've heard some good points and the current and safest way is the way it will be trained. Then thank your dad for his input. That MIGHT let the class see that you are open to opinions but firm in training. Maybe some respect will come of it?. I dunno. This is just from a different viewpoint. Another thought to throw into the mix. Again...good luck.
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Permalink Reply by paula beckham on
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Hi jake
i would say we do things very diffrently here in nz in so far is there is a fair bit of hands on training
training is every week the following is a example
muster and roll call followed by a stand up briefing on what we will be doing then its get to work at the end its pack up and back to the station clean up and a debriefing
now what our training officer bases his training on is who and what courses are comming up then he hits those topics a good example is one of us is doing her pump course soon so the rest of us have being doing a lot of hose work
our theory work mostly comes from the precourse books that we are working on
im with derek on your dad
and as for the attendance im with the other folk you will need to get the chief behind you and serv them notice of improvement
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Permalink Reply by Paul Montpetit on
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Sounds like your Department has some serious issues going on.....1st...I would start with your Command Staff ...Not to seem brutal but You all (Officers) need to grow a set of balls....Officers are NOT there to make friends but to command....You have a set of SOG's, SOP's...start enforcing them...2nd...Make your members aware that the crap has now hit the fan and there is a new sherrif in town....This is the way it is...like it...? If not then they can run for the Office......As one of our Officers once said..."You volunteer to get in and you can volunteer to get out....in between you do as you are told"...Family issues should not become Department issues....I hate to put it this way but your father should know better....say something to him away from the Department....He is undermining your authority and no-one is going to take you seriously until he stops....Stay safe.....Paul
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