Who should be in charge of the apparatus while responding to the scene?

This topic comes up when I am assigned to engineer. I believe that the engineer should have the say what goes on inside the cab while the vehicle is in motion. My reason is if your involve in a wreck who is going to be sited. In a case that happen in a county next to mine a quint responding code 3 T-Boned a car a killed the occupants inside. The driver tried in court for the deaths, and the local media covered the story only on the driver. My understanding is that the officer riding in the appropriate seat was not charged or any actions taken. Only internal. With this accident speed was a factor and responding to a general alarm drop. Looking for opinions on this and if some dept's have SOG's on the topic.

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Permalink Reply by Oldman on September 3, 2008 at 4:29pm

In aviation, the person sitting in the left seat on fixed wing aircraft, is usually the "Pilot in Charge". It's usually the right seat in helicopters. The pilot in charge is responsible for all aspects of the flight from engine startup to shutdown, even if he is not personally handling the controls. However we have what is know as "Cockpit Resource Management". With CRM, both the pilot and co-pilot share duties and responsibilities. While the one is flying the aircraft, the other one is communicating with flight services or tower, checking maps, monitoring the instruments, etc. But the ultimate decision is made by the PIC.

This same concept should be used in the cab of the apparatus. There have been several articles written lately in various magazines talking about "Crew Resource Management". It's the same basic principle. The EO, Chauffeur, driver, whatever your department calls them would be the PIC. He has the ultimate responsibility for the entire operation of the apparatus from engine startup to shutdown. Likewise, as in the cockpit, the person sitting in the right seat could be communicating with dispatch or fireground, looking at maps, operating the lights and sirens, and monitoring not only traffic, but also the actions of the EO. By utilizing CRM, and having SOG's which spell it out, clear communications between seats, there should be less of a chance of an incident. It can also be called called "Team work".

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Permalink Reply by Drew Tenhundfeld on September 3, 2008 at 5:53pm

Brian, even with the opticom working we should proceed with caution.

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Permalink Reply by Phil Ferris on September 3, 2008 at 6:11pm

Simply stated and to the point. I agree

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Permalink Reply by Barry Homyack on September 3, 2008 at 6:21pm

Well I would say, that the officer driving the truck should be in charge.

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Permalink Reply by Bill Muehsam on September 4, 2008 at 12:26pm

Both are responsible. The D/O/Engineer is responsible for the SAFE operation of the apparatus. This includes NOT BLOWING INTERSECTIONS. Those red lights and sirens are NOT A FREE PASS!!!!! If any of my Engineers blow an intersection, they won't be driving anymore, period. As the Shift Supervisor, I am responsible for everything that does, or does not, happen on my shift. If the Engineer isn't operating the apparatus in a safe manner, and I don't do anything about it, it's my butt on the line, or in front of the chief, not his. True, he may get the traffic ticket, but I'm held responsible for his actions, or anyone else's on that rig, for that matter.

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Permalink Reply by Matt Mason on February 5, 2009 at 10:53am

The officer of the truck that is the person in the passenger seat regaurdless of rank if there is another higher ranking official on the truck he should be in the passenger seat *NOTE* Dont put a Probie in the passenger seat. The driver needs to focus on gettin you to the scene and not worrying about the crew the officer should give everybody their assignments.

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Permalink Reply by Bill Mulligan on February 5, 2009 at 11:13am

WELL THE DRIVER OF THE RIG IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE SAFE OPERATION OF THE VEHICLE. NO MATTER WHAT HE IS TOLD IT IS UP TO THE DRIVER TO OPERATE THE VEHILCE IN A SAFE MANNER AND AT A SAFE SPEED. INTERSECTIONS ARE ALWAYS A PROBLEM AND SHOULD BE HANDLE WITH CARE NO MATTER WHAT TYPE OF TRAFFIC CONTROL DEVICE IS IN PLACE. IF YOUR OFFICER IS NOT PAYING ATTENTION TO THE INTERSECTION YOU SHOULD NOT PROCEED THROUGH THE INTERSECTION UNTIL HE HELPS YOU CLEAR IT. IN THE BIG PICTURE A GOOD FIRE OFFICER IS GOING TO DO EVERYTHING IN THERE POWER TO BRING HIS COMOPANY JHOME FROM ALL CALLS FOR SERVICE. BUT IN THE ABOVE CASE IF SPEED WAS A FACTOR AND THEN THE DRIVER HAS TO BE HELD AT A HIGHER STANDARD. I THIONK I UNDERSTAND THIS WAS AN ALARM CALL IF SO IN MY OPINION WHY WAS THERE A NEED FOR GOING SO FAST. I THINK THE FIRE SERVICE NEEDS TO START TO LOOK AT HOW WE RESPOND TO CALLS ARE WE ALWAY JUSTIFIED IN GOING CODE 3 TO ALL OF OUR CALLS. SORRY FOR THE CAPS BUTTON STUCK

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Permalink Reply by Brian Myers, Jr. on February 5, 2009 at 3:40pm

Engineer / Chauffeur / MPO - drives the vehicle safely
Officer - is in charge and makes sure the driver drives the vehicle safely
All members wear their belts = EVERYONE GOES HOME.
SOP's / Training / Discipline.

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Permalink Reply by Paul Montpetit on February 5, 2009 at 3:49pm

The Officer AND the Engineer or operator should be held responsible....

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Permalink Reply by fireman1049 on February 5, 2009 at 4:52pm

Sir, on our Dept it is our S.O.P. that everyone has their gear on befor getting into the engine.. NO EXCEPTIONS. Mainly due to safety for the crew as well as for the people we are to protect and serve.. Aside from the fact that the officers on my dept are real sticklers when it comes to safety.. Which i am glad of.. it promotes safe work practices while going to the scene, on the scene, on the way back to the station, and in the station..
So i dont understand why an officer would be getting dressed on the way when 1) it blocks the field of view. 2) why did the driver even move the truck if people were still getting dressed?
im all for safety first for everyone..

back to the main topic.. was this driver certified to opperate that truck? did he take a driving course for opperating a truck while responding with lights and sirens? Here in ohio it is mandatory that anyone who is going to opperate any apparatus take a driving course and be certified to opperate it. otherwise if u are not certified to drive it, u dont opperate it.. no exceptions at least on my dept the chief enforces this issue..Mainly due to all the accidents involving driver error. the insurance is also a big pusher for making sure the driver is certified also... as mentioned, not all the facts are know about this incident..

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Permalink Reply by fireman1049 on February 5, 2009 at 5:05pm

ok,, i have to disagree with you on the point of opperating the lights and sirens plus the radio..
its enough for the driver to shift gears while stearing the truck... let alone reaching for the radio or siren controls.. our SOG is keep both hands on the wheel except to shift gears.. we have the officer or fire fighter opperate the lights, siren and radio while responding in the apparatus as a SOG for the safety of the crew as well as for the safety of the public..