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Why make a fire defensive, when it doesn't have to be?
Hello all. I live in a Rural area and am a volunteer with a Rural Department. I have been noticing a few issues as of late and would sincerely value your input. One of my biggest concerns is mentioned in the title. It seems that every fire we respond to mutual aid or otherwise, no matter how large or small, from a seemingly simple room and contents, to a fully involved structure is deemed by the powers to be as unsafe. If we were just going to surround and drown, what is the point of even having the title of Firefighter? I thought the point of our job was to save lives AND property...not just to watch a small fire get bigger. I'm a firm believer that if you have interior qualified personnel, and a pumper on the scene capable of containing the fire, then why not? If an interior attack can be effectively done, then do it!
I don't have a whole lot of experience, but I do have enough experience AND common sense to know what I can and cannot do on the scene. If any of you have any input you can offer me on this, it would be greatly appreciated. Thank you
I don't have a whole lot of experience, but I do have enough experience AND common sense to know what I can and cannot do on the scene. If any of you have any input you can offer me on this, it would be greatly appreciated. Thank you
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by CAPNCRNCH on
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2 in / 2 out is for IDLH atmospheres, I have been in many fires that were contained to room and contents, and the only part of the structure that was IDLH was the involved room, fight the fire from the hallway and all is good.
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Permalink Reply by Sam on
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Well as a volunteer myself I can tell You some of the things on my chiefs mind when we go out. My chief has been doing this for about 45 years and is very well known throughout the state of Indiana and he is one of the most well informed persons in the state I only say this bit about him in order to shine some light on the fact that he is a man that should be given one hell of alot of respect for his knowledge and experience he stays current and up to date. He is trying to foster all his firefighters in the most proffesional manner that is possible for a chief in a volunteer dept from the 1st assist to the prob. We are faced with the same probs that every other dept faces out dated equipment,lack of personel showing up for training,some that dont want to roll with the changing service etc. He has his reasons for everything he does as well as the officers that are under him. Do You and the rest of the dept train regularly together and when You do how many show up is it the same small hand full all the time. What type of training are You doing are You training all the time to stay current in a service that changes on a constant.Are You training for interior ops are you skilled in observing exterior conditions in order to understand some of the interior conditions (ie:smoke reading) I know alot of my chiefs decsions are based on his knowledge of his personel (ie:training,attitude,aggrasivness,commen sense) if he doesnt feel like your the wright person for the job then you will not do that job and I think that would hold true for any decsions making career or volunteer officer or other. When he gives orders we dont question them because we know that our chief and our officers have our best intrest in mind they want us to go home after the run the same way we showed up for the run maybe a bit more worn out but healthy and all limbs accounted for. Try talking to Your chief and Im sure he will explain to You his reasons for not going in maybe he just doesnt feel the dept is skilled enough or maybe he simple is thinking about the families of his people and he knows just like so many of the rest of us that there is no material pos worth the life of a human. If there is a life at risk is it worth the risk of firefighters or should you stay out and hope for a recovery. The more you learn through training and experience and just being around the senior guys the more open your eyes will get and then the more of the big pic you will see I have only been with in the fire service for 4 years and I have a long road ahead of me and more then I can imagine to learn and if ever the day comes that I think I know it all I hope somebody is there to put me in my place. Talk to the man he has reasons. Do You train with those that You are doing mutal aid with lots of factors out there and I dont know them but thats all the more reason to talk about it. If your department has regular meetings maybe that would be a good time to bring it up and talk about it as a group I am not saying gang up on the officers just saying to talk about it.
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Permalink Reply by lutan1 on
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That's my point Paul- risk it for a life, but not property.
Who gives a rats arse about the property, if it means I'm going to put myself or my crew at risk?
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Permalink Reply by Art "ChiefReason" Goodrich on
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This is going to be a real popular thread and I don't mean that in a good way.
Have you not been reading, watching and listening to the discussions on what is KILLING firefighters?
You get called for mutual aid? How long at that point do you suppose the fire has burned?
How much building construction knowledge do you possess?
What about fire behavior?
If what you do isn't personally satisfying enough for you, go find another hobby, unless you think a firefighter funeral is the way to go out.
Good God, man; you're joking with us, right?
16 Life Safety Initiatives?
Where is Bill Carey when you need him.
I cannot believe that there are still people out there who think they need to go inside to affirm their manhood and quench their thirst for cheating death once again.
I got two words for you and then I will shut up: CHARLESTON NINE!
Please stay safe.
For the rest of you:
TCSS.
Art
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Permalink Reply by Smoke Eater on
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AMEN ART!!!! We should never forget those nine brothers who lost their lives fighting a fire that should have been defensive from the get go.
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Permalink Reply by andrew shapiro on
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Art, you took the two words right out of the mouths of many of us. I'm not a firefighter but plain logic (and the evidence) indicates that there is just too much inherent UNPREDICTABILITY on the fireground to sensibly argue against your position.
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WP:
People who state fighting a fire interior with no pre-conditions or pre-planning is viewing it as a hobby and not for the dangerous occupation that it is.
"Another hobby" may have been a poor choice of words, but, risking your life in the name of saving property alone is a bad decision.
If the structure is still sound and it can be contained by going inside, then by all means do.
But look at what he said. He said "mutual aid". Unless his department is a block away, then the fire is going to grow. If they get there and the IC has already declared it defensive, then that in itself says that the structure is lost.
You have been on here enough to know that I have NOT said, defense in every case.
And people who make the blanket statement that they don't see why we don't fight them interior is indeed viewing it as a hobby, no different than shooting at targets or knitting.
And I am not simple minded to believe that firefighting is a "hobby".
Give me more credit than that.
TCSS.
Art
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And to clarify my comment, I have constantly said it is based on risk assessments and shoudln't be an automatic decision to go interior. However, in this instance, I ommitted that....Apologies.
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Permalink Reply by Cameron Monroe, Captain, Argyle on
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I KINDA agree with you.
I am an aggressive firefighter. I wanna get the wet on the red ASAP and save a house.
That being said I have also been interior and had a roof come down on me and my partner and it knocked him out for a min I had to drag him out-THANK GOD we were close to a door !!! We went to hospital with minor injuries. Could have been much worse.
As a firefighter with many years experience and much training I know what to look for and the IC has the responsibility of EVERYONE if someone gets hurt or killed trying to save a simple house it’s on him.
THINK for a min-How would you feel if your orders did that and you had to see family and friends of that person every day. Not to mention the legal $hit to deal with.
Risk VS gain is all you need to remember
If you still have problems TALK TO THE CHIEF- Don’t do the BULL SHIT of talking behind his back!! That will only cause problems. Be a Firefighter and talk it out-You will get better answers then we can ever give you!
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good points! just urging that the "calculations" be figured with considerable prejudice on the safe side. because sometimes even the best and most experienced calculations on the fireground won't add up in the end...
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Kali:
Yes; WPhilly and I have agreed many times.
During my active years, we took several fires interior, but only after weighing the risks. Most houses around here are very old and heavy timber in many cases. If it wasn't for the damned balloon construction, we would have had more saves.
We also took several-usually in the rural part of our district-defensively. Took too long to get there; you know the rest of the story. Shuttle water until only the foundation was left.
I am now concerned that I may have upset the gun owners and grandmas with my target shooting and knitting comment.
And Philly; for the record, I have sworn off the use of the term "hobby".
In the future, I may use the term "side interests".
Little guy in my head didn't take his meds today.
Sorry for the confusion.
But this thread ties in to my last blog and its discussion, so that is a good thing.
Otherwise; we will keep discussing how firefighters are getting killed while firefighters are still getting killed!
TCSS.
Art
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I just posted a blog that you might find interesting and will perhaps, participate in.
Please check it out: http://www.firefighternation.com/profiles/blogs/building-a-risk-ass...
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