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Who should be in charge of the apparatus while responding to the scene?
This topic comes up when I am assigned to engineer. I believe that the engineer should have the say what goes on inside the cab while the vehicle is in motion. My reason is if your involve in a wreck who is going to be sited. In a case that happen in a county next to mine a quint responding code 3 T-Boned a car a killed the occupants inside. The driver tried in court for the deaths, and the local media covered the story only on the driver. My understanding is that the officer riding in the appropriate seat was not charged or any actions taken. Only internal. With this accident speed was a factor and responding to a general alarm drop. Looking for opinions on this and if some dept's have SOG's on the topic.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by David on
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Easy the role of engineer is that to ensure saftey of the crew on the rig while responding the engineer does not move that rig until he knows his crew is ready and of course when you are running all the primairy equipment that gets you there that kinda means your the one. Now this does not mean start telling your officer what to do.
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Partnership in the cab.
My view of the Driver / Engineer vs Officer (right seat) responsibility is as follows:
It is a partnership dedicated to the safe transportation of the crew and apparatus from the point of response to the fireground. While the driver is charged with the handling and safe operation of the vehicle, the officer carries the overall responsibility for the mission. This includes the safe operation of the vehicle. This means that while responding, the officer must supervise the driver in the safe performance of his duties. While in motion, modern practices require all persons to be seated and belted. Therefore, the officer should not be getting dressed or packing up. In fact I require the right seat occupant work with me to ensure safe travel to the emergency.
Onehundred fifty years ago, when the railroads invented "traffic signals", there were lots of "accidents" involving head-ons and rear enders. Finally in the 1880's, a new directive was made requiring the engineer to call out the condition of any block signals to his fireman, and the fireman was required to look at the signal and call out what he observed. These sorts of mistakes are not a new problem. Anyone involved in Quality Control or Inspection is taught that 100% visual inspection is only about 85% effective. So if there is a 5% chance of making an error on the part of the driver, even with the officer rechecking his observation, there will still be one chance in 238 of making a mistake. (0.0042%)
The last statistics I am aware of concerning operating vehicles is that an experienced automobile driver can expect to have one reportable accident in 60,000 miles. Even experienced TTL drivers have one reportable every 650,000 miles. We are always operating in conditions that just scream "Watch-out" at intersections and driveways. We need every pair of eyes possible, searching for problems. My officer better be talking to me on every intersection, commenting on radio chatter and even reminding me about hydrant & hazard loactions. Coming through intersections, I always call "Clear" before I enter and my officer better call "Clear!" before I proceed.
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Permalink Reply by Kevin Burks on
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It doesn't matter what is going on inside that engine. It is the drivers responsibility to get that vehicle to the scene. Seat belts are to be worn at all times NO excuses . The DRIVER is responsible for making sure that he can proceed through an intersection safely. Remember to drive to arrive safely and that EVERYONE GOES HOME !!!!
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Permalink Reply by Richard Shankman on
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Just my 2 cents worth, but I believe the driver is in charge of the vehicle, and is also responsible. When I drive I always say "SEAT BELTS ON!" and check, verbally if I can't see the guys in the back, to confirm they're on before I move the engine one inch.
Our guys have been told "not to change" in the truck while it's moving, so I try to give em a second to get ready and belt up before departure.
If you have an issue with an officer, try to work it out directly with him, then if that doesn't work go up the chain of command. Or you can just stop the truck until whoever is finished fiddling around, dressing, etc. Safety first.
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Permalink Reply by Paul Young on
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This is a complicated issue. The engineer, driver, or what ever your department calls the operator, is in charge of the vehicle and those riding inside it. On the other hand, the officer is in charge of the driver. In our department, legally the driver can be charged, but the officer will be held accountable.
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This is a complicated issue. The engineer, driver, or what ever your department calls the operator, is in charge of the vehicle and those riding inside it. On the other hand, the officer is in charge of the driver. In our department, legally the driver can be charged, but the officer will be held accountable.
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Permalink Reply by Norman E. Flanders on
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Drew, The driver/operator or senior member/officer is in charge of the responding vehicle. In many cases it's only a driver. That driver /operator is fully responsible for his actions regarding driving that apparatus.
Here's what our SOP's say regarding:
3.3 Emergency Vehicle Response:
A. Drivers shall attain a prompt, safe response by:
1. Knowing where they are going and how to get there.
2. Being seat belted in place prior to vehicle movement.
3. Ensuring all compartment doors are closed and station doors is fully open prior to vehicle movement.
4. Driving defensively and professionally at a speed appropriate for conditions, but in no case more than
10 mph over the posted speed limit.
5. Use warning devices to move around and to request the right of way in a safe and predictable manner.
6. Emergency (Code 3) driving does not absolve the driver of any responsibility to drive with due regard
to public safety.
7. Safe arrival shall always have priority over speed in route to an emergency incident.
B. Drivers shall not:
1. Drive faster than conditions warrant or take unnecessary chances during negative right-of-way
conditions.
2. Use the size or speed of the vehicle in such a way to intimidate or scare other drivers.
C. Specific Rules:
1. When responding to an emergency warning lights and siren must be on to ask for the right-of-way.
2. Responding vehicles traveling over the posted speed limit incur an additional liability to the safety of
others as speed limits are designed for small passenger vehicles operating within the environment, and
not heavy, slow handling fire apparatus. For this reason, speeds greater than 10 mph over the posted
speed limit are considered unsafe and not allowed.
3. Under less favorable conditions, the posted speed limit should be considered the absolute maximum
response speed. Less favorable conditions include, but are not limited to: Heavy traffic, Limited
visibility, Poor surface, Inclement weather.
4. At all intersections, the driver must account for all traffic lanes prior to entering the intersection. If the
intersection is a negative right-of-way (stop sign, red light, etc.) the driver must come to a complete
stop before entering the intersection and may proceed only if all traffic lanes have yielded right of way.
5. Emergency vehicles are required to pass other vehicles on the left. In any case where an emergency
vehicle passes other vehicles on the right, additional responsibility is incurred.
6. During an emergency response, fire vehicles should avoid passing other emergency vehicles. If passing
is necessary, permission should be obtained through radio communication. As a general guideline,
passing applies to wide-open roadways with plenty of visibility and minimal side-road access.
7. During emergency response, drivers should slow to a near stop when approaching railroad tracks as
emergency lights and sirens may mask an oncoming train. Do not count on posted signaling devices to
warn of a train.
There are railroad crossing without posted signaling devices. A confirmed visual clearance of the tracks
is necessary prior to crossing.
8. When approaching a school bus with flashing red lights, the driver must obey all traffic regulations,
including stopping, regardless of the emergency response.
9. Emergency response should be discontinued and routine driving resumed upon a disregard being given to the apparatus.
10. If an emergency vehicle is ticketed for a traffic violation or involved in an accident and where passing
on the right is involved, the emergency driver is responsible and may be cited.
11. If you as a driver, are cited by any law enforcement agency while operating a CFD apparatus in due
disregard for the law “ YOU AND ONLY YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE ” for your actions.
I hope this helps you. Good luck, stay safe, train often and share knowledge.
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Permalink Reply by Edwin Coates on
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The Officer or Senior Fire Fighter who is appointed as the person in-charge of a vehicle is responsible for the overall safety of the vehicle and crew when responding to an incident or event (including training).
The Officer or Senior Fire Fighter who is appointed as the person in-charge of a vehicle is responsible for ensuring that the agreed route to the incident or event is followed at all times.
The Officer or Senior Fire Fighter who is appointed as the person in charge of a vehicle is responsible for ensuring that the legal requirements applying to the use of vehicles are adhered to at all times.
The Officer or Senior Fire Fighter who is appointed as the person in charge of a vehicle may operate hazard lights, headlights and beacons when responding to an incident or event at their discretion provided the legal requirements applying to the use of vehicles and trailers are adhered to at all times.
The Officer or Senior Fire Fighter who is appointed as the person in charge of a vehicle is responsible for the safe positioning of the fire vehicle (pointing away from the fire) at the incident locale having regard for radiated heat, access, ground conditions and the risk of the vehicle exhaust starting secondary grass fires.
The appointed driver of a vehicle is responsible for ensuring that the vehicle is driven safely without causing injury to passengers or damage to property and the vehicle itself, and that safety belts remained fastened by all crew at all times.
The appointed driver of a vehicle is responsible for ensuring that the vehicle arrives at the incident site as quickly as is practicable having regard for road safety, traffic regulations and traffic conditions at that time.
The appointed driver of a vehicle is responsible for ensuring that the fire vehicle is positioned safely at the incident location to meet its operational role, with due regard given to being able to move the fire vehicle quickly if and as required.
The appointed driver of a vehicle is responsible for ensuring that the vehicle is safely parked at all times, with the handbrake firmly applied and the front wheels positioned to turn into the curb when parked on a hill.
The appointed driver of a vehicle is responsible for ensuring that hazard lights, headlights, beacons and road cones are used appropriately when the vehicle is parked on a roadside to warn approaching traffic of the hazard ahead.
Where a vehicle is parked on the wrong side of the road during the day the headlights should be on dip.
Where a vehicle is parked on the wrong side of the road during the night
headlights should be off and park lights left on.
The engine of a vehicle should be left running where headlights and beacons are required to be operating. Keys should be left in the ignition of the vehicle unless there is a risk of the vehicle being stolen.
The appointed driver of a vehicle is responsible for ensuring that beacons are used at all times when reversing a vehicle with one crew member guiding the driver and another crew member acting as a safety observer until the reversing is completed.
stay safe...
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Permalink Reply by CHRIS on
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you are right as standerd sop at my station driver eng is the only one that is driveing and is only incharge of the safty of the unit to and from the call the front left rider is in charge of the raideo
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It has been tried in court, the driver has FULL responsibility. Including telling the officer to sit down put on your seat belt!
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GROW SOME BALLS AND DO WHAT IS RIGHT!
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Permalink Reply by Lou Anne on
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The Driver's are responsible. The driver is the only one that has control of the excellerator and everything else on that side of the truck.The others in the cab should be belted in and planning there mode of attack on the scene. What they do in a court of law is out of our control. The person involved should also attend an EVOC course. We are a volunteer dept. and we don't always have an officer in the apparatus when it leaves the station.
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