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Pompier Ladders- Does Anyone Use These?
I was talking to one of our Probies the other day, and he asked me about Pompier Ladders. I told him that in 14 years, I've never seen one except in pictures. In fact, I'm certain that no F.D. in the Chicagoland area owns one of these! Are there any Fire Departments out there that actually use Pompier Ladders? Thanks in advance!
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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I can't think of another reason to use a pompier ladder. They were intended to climb tall, Type III (ordinary construction/unreinforced masonry) buildings out of the reach of aerial or ground ladders when the interior stairs were untenable, damaged, or destroyed.
They were also intended to rescue able-bodied victims that could assist in their own rescue.
If the victim was unconscious, badly injured, or disabled by smoke...too bad.
Virtually no truck company carries them now - they've gone the way of the life net as a rescue tool.
The risks of climbing 6 or more stories, unbelayed, with a possibly panicky victim aren't considered worth it by most fire chiefs. The real-life rescues with pompier ladders were few and far between, even decades ago when they were commonly carried.
There's also no pompier ladder that can meet the NFPA annual testing requirements. If there was such a ladder, it would probably be too heavy to use as a scaling ladder.
There are some large cities with tall, ordinary construction buildings. Some of those have been retrofitted with enclosed fire stairs and sprinkler systems, which make pompier ladders unnecessary.
Since the 1960's, most high-rise new construction is Type II with glass curtain walls. The glass prevents pompier ladders from being used in those structures.
I can't find any manufacturer that currently makes pompier ladders, which should also tell us something.
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Permalink Reply by DCFireman on
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We respond to over 150 thousand emergency response with our Engines, Truck Companies and Rescue Squads each year and have approximately 105 accidents each year this includes any minor accidents such as backing accidents,striking mirrors. How my friend can a department respond to so many incidents and yet have so few major accidents I just don't have an answer but you and the the so called experts apparently do!!
But maybe we should look into driver inexperience, lack of adequate and proper drivers training and other assorted mitigating factors! If you are that worried the SCBA Manufacturers can devise devices that will hold the SCBA while the vehicle is in motion and the seatbelt remains engaged.
I am impressed with your platitudes and safety oriented outlooks but you and those like you would rather bow to the lawsuits and liability what if's!!!
Fire Chiefs, Governments, Manufacturers et al.. bow to the legal aspects not what is always right!!
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Permalink Reply by sully on
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i know of the new york city still uses the ladders to this day. i had a good friends who was with fdny and he has use them before.
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The problem isn't the accident rate, but the high percentage of fatalities that result when seatbelts are not worn. That's a nationwide stat, not just for D.C. The primary reason seatbelts are not worn...well, we have to get those SCBA on and be ready to go to work the second the apparatus stops...or even dismount when it's still rolling, according to some.
What you call "platitudes" I call "keeping more firefighters alive". I have trouble understanding how that could be percieved as not doing the right thing.
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You hide behind national statistics but you haven't answered my question then how is it we haven't killed more civillians or firemen due to accidents etc? You can't we are very aggressive in our response and yet we still have our SCBA in the crew compartment... Maybe we should look farther into the training, experience and capabilities of those driving our emergency vehicles and yet still somethings just happen for whatever the reason.
You and I are going to have too agree to disagree we both want the same thing in the end, we just believe in different paths.... You believe in statistics etc.. and liability first conscious methods and I do not! I believe that training, individual responsibility, new and innovative equipment design and techniques can accomplish the same goals
But people like you who think the NFPA is the end all be all are wrong, as long as the lawyers have the system in a strangle hold we will never know so I guess it is what it is... When it comes down to it those that don't perform the jjob as much anymore, those that want to make money off of the system and those who are liability conscious are the ones that write publish and believe chapter and verse in the NFPA.....
Like I said they have a useful purpose and have done good but hey what do I know...
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DC, your post mixes up two very different things...
I didn't hide behind anything. Your department may not have killed a lot of firefighters in accidents, but if your department allows unseatbelted riding/responding, eventually the luck will run out. New Orleans quoted their past statistics about not getting hit with a hurricane prior to 2005, too. In other words, past performance isn't a reliable predictor of the future.
Firefighter's behavior is notoriously difficult to change. That's why some pretty smart fire departments have given up on the behavior modification and applied an engineering control to focus responding on getting to the scene in the safest possible manner.
If your deparment has 100% seat belt wear compliance when the rigs are in motion, then my hat's off. I seriously doubt that any department with SCBA seats has anywhere near 100% compliance, though. What that means is that the people that don't wear the seatbelts are on borrowed time, regardless of previous history. Ask the departments that never had a vehicle accident LODD...until the first one.
The other issue, the NFPA has no bearing on my personal opinion that it's safer to get the SCBA out of the cabs. The NFPA has no standard on this - in fact, the new 1901 standard has very specific SCBA seat retention system requirements.
Your department - and you - probably use NFPA standards on a daily basis...
You ride in a fire apparatus that's manufactured to the NFPA 1901 standard.
You wear turnout gear that's manufactured to the NFPA 1971 standard.
You use SCBA that's manufactured to the NFPA 1981 and 1952 standards.
You use life safety rope and hardware that's manufactured to the NFPA 1983 standard.
And, you climb ladders that are manufactured and tested to the NFPA 1931 and 1932 standards.
Four active firefighters from my department are members of NFPA committees. They don't make money off the system. They perform the job every shift. They may be more liability conscious than some other firefighters, but any firefighter who isn't conscious of the legal downside of our profession is asking for trouble. Just ask any department that ignores the NFPA 1403 standard on Live Fire Training.
I don't think that the NFPA is the "end all be all", either. It wasn't lawyers that wrote the NFPA 1983 rope standard...it was firefighters that didn't want a repeat of the double LODD that FDNY had due to a rope failure during a firefighter rescue. Ditto for the NFPA fire codes that were written by firefighters and fire marshals in response to the Our Lady of the Angels, Coconut Grove, and Beverly Hills Supper Club fires. It was life safety, not liability concerns that drove - and still drives - the new standards.
I'm under no illusion that the NFPA is perfect. I'm also under no illusion that lawyers and the civil tort system will not be a factor in public fire protection as long as our nation exists. You should know...I think there are a couple of lawyers in D.C. :-)
I agree that new and innovative equipment design can make a difference. Designing fire apparatus seats with seat belts that actually work while wearing turnout gear and that don't contain SCBA is a pretty innovative idea.
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Permalink Reply by Gail Holzhausen on
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Christ Hoell introduced the Pompier Method of fire fighting to the US in 1877 having been a member of the Pompier Company in Elberfeld Germany for seven years. He did so in response to fires at the Brooklyn Theater and Southern Hotel in St. Louis Mo. The pompier apparatus is simple in construction, not dependent on any machinary, telephone/electric wires do not get interfer in its use. It can be used in narrow alleys, back yards and answers the same purpose as any hook and ladder truck, and even discounts a truck in the time that can be made by a well trained pompier, which is the main point at a fire to catch it in the start, or to head it off. The Pompier LIfe-Saving Service training manual was patented by Hoell in 1879. He traveled to New York City, Boston and Philadelphia to train fire fighters on this method of fire figthing. He died in a fire at a peanut warehouse in St. Louis in 1887, leaving his widow and six children.
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Christ Hoell and company.pdf, 75 KB -
front view of pompier ladder.doc, 3.3 MB
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Permalink Reply by Alan Shaw on
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Thread CPR time again...
I have never had the chance to climb a pompier ladder but I would love to try it some time. I don't think they were taken out of service because they were unsafe, but probably because they were becoming obsolete. Other posters have mentioned the building constructions factors that were a big part of this. As runs go up and actual fires go down, and as we get generations of new firefighters without a background in either the building trades or the military we are in need of more confidence builders not less. If climbing an obsolete ladder will help someone get over a fear of heights or understand ladder use and building construction better, then I am all for it.
We still carry a 40 foot Bangor ladder on our truck. It was out of vogue to train on it when I joined. We went to a mutual aid drill one night with our truck and were going over what tools and equipment we carried. The other department asked to use the Bangor ladder. I had never used it. Fortunately they had a very senior man who was experienced with them, he showed all of us how to use it. That is not a mistake I want to repeat.
When I took my Safety Officer class we discussed Phoenix and moving the SCBA's back into compartments. At the time it was not about seat belts, it was about flashover. The theory was that we have done allot to respond quicker and go to work quicker and actually arrive at the fire when it was in a more dangerous state then we did years ago. Taking the time to get out, and put on your SCBA in front of the building gave you time to look and do a quick size up and maybe get in post flashover instead of pre flashover. Interestingly enough they did this because it would take longer to don the SCBA not because it would be faster. At least that is the theory that was presented to me in class. It is not a theory that I subscribe to.
Relatively speaking, I do not have a great deal of time in the fire service, so it is not like I remember things from a bygone era. I do however respect those that have gone before me, and developed much of what we know today as firefighting. Those of us in small(er) suburban departments do need to keep an eye on what the big cities are doing. The major metropolitan departments are our research & development division. If you are not paying attention to what New York, Boston, Washington DC, Chicago and a handful of others are doing, you are not doing your best to learn the craft.
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Permalink Reply by Todd on
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We have one, but don't use it. It hangs in our "museum" area. There are several at the Oklahoma Firefighter's Museum in OKC.
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Permalink Reply by Mica Calfee on
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FYI -The information submitted by Mike Schlags (Captain Busy) Retd, above was taken from a fire service history website, without credit.
http://www.fireserviceinfo.com/pompierladders.html
More information about the history of Christ Hoell & The Pompier Life-Saving Service can be found here:
http://www.fireserviceinfo.com/hoellmanual.html
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