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Five Minutes in the Street: Making the Call...
You’re the first-due company officer. Your company has arrived at a well involved and progressing fire in a two story wood frame (Type V), residential occupancy, housing two families; one on each floor. It’s 03:50 hours.
You have a report of trapped occupant on the number two floor either in the hallway or bedroom.
The fire is rapidly extending, you observe pre-flashover conditions on the second floor based upon the smoke assessment.
You have a six person crew, half are experienced the other half are relatively new. The second due company is at least 5-6 minutes out.
What are you going to do?
You have a limited widow of opportunity….
Think about realistic tactical objectives and tasks…
Think about the time factors…
What are you going to do...YOU have to make the call and right now…?
BTW, you did not pick up a hydrant coming in...but you have a 1000 gallon tank on the engine...
Did I mention, you've got family members "screaming" at you to do something....
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Marques Bush on
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Robert excellent point on laying out for the water shuttle. I agree that steps have to be taken to ensure a continuous water supply.
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Permalink Reply by FETC on
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You obviously feel laying in is the ONLY option. But that is not true and many people in the fire service do not do it YOUR way.
I went to the website. I will quote them straight from their homepage. The point of the video is that uninhibited fire grows exponentially every second. Watching this video as a firefighter, the point seems clear to me: GET WATER ON THE FIRE FAST.
Now being trapped upstairs with an uncontrolled fire below, delaying fire attack to stop, drop a guy and lay in is, in fact a delay in suppression and rescue.
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Permalink Reply by Engineco913 on
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I absolutely agree. With 1000 gallons on board, you have sufficient stopping power and protection to make a quick grab. The main mission here is saving lives, not putting the fire out. Total fire suppression is a secondary mission on this house. The second due will have ample time to hit the plug and connect without water really being lost.
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Permalink Reply by Robert Owens on
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I just don't know why you wouldn't lay in ITS A FIRE!!!! Here are the "Ten Commandments" of the first due comapny officer that we live by in my FD and might explain my opinion. Lastly I will say when the fire goes out everything gets better and you can't guarantee you are gonna have enough unless you establish a continuious water supply.....BTW if read the whole website it also says lay line between the hydrant and the house. Stay Safe.
Ten Commandments of a Company Officer
I: “First In / Lay In” Be self sufficient with water supply
II: Preparation rules the fireground. (No matter if you are first due or last due.)
I expect you to employ pre-arrival instructions to other companies when you are the first due company. They should be specific to assign normal critical task. (ie. RIT, FDC support, additional water supply.)
III: KNOW YOUR ENEMY! ( PFP, Building Const., Occupancy)
IV: Prepare for the worst and you will never be surprised.
V: Remember, the buildings that God likes have auto sprinklers in them.
Support them ASAP.
VI: No matter how distasteful RIT assignment is, your wife and family
Think it’s a great idea!
VII: Everyone must be a soldier on a 3 man Engine / Truck and the Ambulance.
Lead your company into battle, not “send” them. NO sidewalk commanders. Don’t split your crew or give them up for adoption. All personnel are trained to be an ambulance AIC.
VIII: Don’t sacrifice your safety for your comfort. (Wear your PPE and
SCBA always!)
IX: A good indicator of your preparation is your ability to have FUN while
executing your tactics.
X: Remember only 3 things really matter. Preparation, Optimum Service
Delivery, and Going home tomorrow in the same shape you came to
Work in. (except you are really tired). Everything else we do is just
tinsel and mirrors.
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Robert,
Respectfully, I understand this may be how your department does it. I don't agree with it, but thats your gig.
Here are the 2 lines that stand out to me on this thread.
BTW, you did not pick up a hydrant coming in...but you have a 1000 gallon tank on the engine...
Did I mention, you've got family members "screaming" at you to do something....
Our safety IS 100% paramount. You can safely operate for a period of time with 1000 gallons of water to safely make a rescue of the trapped civilians of the second floor and do so before you lose the water from the 1000 onboard the Engine. Like I stated above, the fire is going to burn. We are trying to lessen the effect of the fires growth to allow us to make a rapid entry and search to remove the occupants, not fight the overall bulk of the fire.
When the second due Engine arrives, you will have water in no time. In my opinion, and also my training it shows the first due making the house with the second due engine hitting the water supply and connecting the lead engine.
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I am totally on the same page as you Engine913. I can't remember how many fires I have been to in the city that our tank water (750) has knocked the fire down because of early notification, a 4 minute or less response, with a rapid an aggressive firefighters who are well trained in-hose deployment on a smaller fire as compared to stopping to lay in.
Now with this scenario, the mission is a confirmed rescue and complete suppression is secondary to the basic reason of our existance. I guess truckies sit on their hands and wait for the real heroes, (hose jockeys) to arrive before they can search too.
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Agree to disagree I guess.....i feel that taking a few seconds to lay out will only enhance your effectiveness. I don't even wanna drop a guy at the hydrant. I want the driver to get out wrap the hydrant then get back in and drive to the house. Then split the crew in half ( highly rare opportunity for us since we only ride with 3, which is were that commandment comes in) 2 to the rescue and the rest to fight the fire....the line is mostly to protect the egress points and increase the survuvability potential of the victims by stopping the harmful by products of combustion NOW as oppsed to in a few mins.
If we allow citizens to get us amped up by yelling atus then in my opinion we have already lost. We are the proffesionals and have to act as such no matter the odds stacked against us...we can not use it as an excuse to make rash decisions.
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Permalink Reply by Trainer on
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I responded to this on another thread, so I’ll be brief. Every situation will be different, but I’ll ask if everyone is familiar with the time/temperature curve? And even delaying a few seconds can push that beyond your capability to stop it. In this line of work, time above all else is our worst enemy.
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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Listening to the citizens yelling for us to do something isn't being used as an "excuse to make rash decisions" It is being used as part of the information-gathering process in order to quickly determine the Initial Action Plan. In this case, several of us believe that using the 1,000 gallons of water on the engine to save a life is a better use of time than stopping to lay a supply line.
It will typically take about 1 to 2 minutes to lay, connect, and charge a supply line.
If you are using a 200 GPM line (1.5 inch) then you have 5 minutes of water on the engine. 5 minutes of 200 GPM should be plenty to protect the stairs and to protect the Division 2 search and rescue assignment. If the second engine is within 4 minutes or so after the first engine, then the supply line will be established prior to the 1st engine running out of water.
The search and rescue assignment doesn't require a lot of time to set up, but the attack line will take at least a minute to deploy and flow. If you don't stop to lay a supply line, you should be able to stop the flashover, protect the exterior stairs, and slow vertical extension at least 2 minutes earlier than if you spend that 2 minutes on water supply.
Your comment about fighting the fire NOW is at odds with your position that the 1st engine should establish its own water supply. It's either one or the other here, you can't do both with the available time, manpower, and only one engine on scene.
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Permalink Reply by Christopher J. Naum, SFPE on
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Hey Guys...some really good comments and insights. Let me try to push this discussion back to a true center. Although some of you have elaborated and expanded the time set available to you or talked more about what you would have done...the facts are this; You're in the street, the hydrant did not get picked up (for what ever reason), the engine is in pump, you've got a line already stretched out, you have rapidly extending fire, and you've got "information" going into your ear that someone is in distress-big time. These are the facts.
You also have immediate (staffing) resources (that have limitations and risk associate with them) and you have more resources coming ( time issues). The issues before you are simple yet complex; What are the options, risks and tactics that need to implemented now. Some options may be very obvious to some and very different to others... Let's get some insights on what you need to do-NOW, based upon the situation before you. I think we can generate a few more threads of comments.
Remember time is working against you, there is a very limited window of opportunity to do certain tasks, and this scenario is one of those times...and let me offer one more comment; that many of the seasoned veterans can validate; When you're in the street confronted with these types of conditions, you need to pull all your training, experience, skills, knowledge, fortitude and courage to process the information you have, and react decisively and in a timely manner and make the call....hopefully it will be the right one..
There are mission critical objectives that need to be identified and performed, IF you choose to do so...the end results will be drastically different. Forget about all these fluffy nice to do things...focus on what needs to get done, and done fast......think!
Some of you already replied on the immediacy of certain tasks and offered insights on what needs to focused on…thanks for your contributions.
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Alan,
I disagree with that choice. The main body of the fire is on the 1st floor. The victims are on the 2nd floor.
Vertical vent will draw the fire right to the victims.
Additionally, vertical vent is time-consuming, manpower-consuming, and not a place for rookies. We have 5 minutes, 3 rookies, and 1 other experienced firefighter to carry out every assignment other than operating the pump. The pump operator is our only other experienced firefighter on scene, and he's busy.
I have no problem with vertical vent when it's appropriate, but I don't think this one is the right place or time for going to the roof.
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Mission critical consideration....that will lead you to a specific task and assignment.....
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