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What does it mean to be a Smoke Diver?
Do you have what it takes to be a Smoke Diver? Many have tried but been denied by thier own limitations. Yep, thats right, your limitations! I know that firefighting is about team work, but here at the Mississippi Fire Academy, we teach you about yourself as well. The Goals Have Been Set, Can You Measure Up?
The man that says; "I can't" and the man that says; "Ican" are both correct, which one are you?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Ashley Hampton on
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in Ga the Smoke Divers are the ones who teach the class as mentioned earlyer by Charles they volunteer their time.
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Permalink Reply by Boomer on
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the instructors all volunteer the time to come back and help with the instruction as 95% of the evolutions are in live fire and smoke conditions you need 5 to 6 per evolution at least in our burn building where it is 3 stories 1 per floor, interior saftey, group leader or( group instructor that goes with the group) not to metion exterior, and command . 4 to 6 evolutions ranging anywhere from 8 -10 mins each you do the math as a group rotates out so does a set of instructors. Not to mention most of the time while drills are being conducted in the burn building there are drills going on in the 6 story tower that also require instructors. The class runs 12 hrs. with very little stopage between drills so the number of instructors is high for this reason.
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Not to disagree with ya but ours is about 5 1/2 days 12 to 13 hours a day and we spend 3 1/2 of those at the academy since its 15 miles from our dept. Although I know Smoke Divers is 6 days we actually do the excact same drills the only reason we have this class is because our city attorney will no longer allow our people to attend because we had 2 go to the hospital for treatment years ago. A few years ago our smoke divers got together put this class on and gave it a different name so we could conduct it.
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Permalink Reply by John Crandall on
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Boomer- Thnks, I appreciate that.
Also want to say thanks to everyone else that is adding their input to this dicussion. Although I don't agree with everything - I am glad to see tha people are passionate to at least state what they feel. Point & counter-point is a great way to thoroughly obtain information from many sides. Great job.
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Although the ratio seems unbalanced or skewed compred to the norm; it comes down to SAFETY. With any class that is this intense there needs to be that addd margin of safet and hazard/health recognition. These courses are designed to push/challenge the firefighter - not put them in the ground. That happens far to often as it is.
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Permalink Reply by SmOkE DivEr on
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LOLOLOL
Good morning to all. I see we"ve had a number of new discussions concerning SD since I last checked in. Thanks to ALL that have responded thus far.
We can shoot out a hundred and one statistics and qoutes,, but the reality is this!!! No fire/ incident/ fireman is the same! Yes we learn form them, or we should. And if we've learned anything, we should have learned that heartattacks and becoming dioriented is the number one killers in structure fires.
Basic firefightiong teaches us how to effectively mitigate situations and stay alive, but even with that we need a bit more trianing and exercise to do our job better. No this one week class is not going to teach you everything you need to know,,, but it sure does help. I'm all for powerpoints/ in-house training, or what ever you want to call it. Why? Because it makes me better.
As I mentioned in an earlier blog (page 5 please re-read), there are more than 700 SDs in the NATION. The 700 I smoke of is actually 983 and those are the ones that was trained by the Mississippi Fire Academy. I apologize for the miss qoute.
On page 5, there is also a number scenarios/evolutions that the students must complete before graduating, but all the skills are related back to Basic skills, (NFPA 1001. Is there a standard for this particular class? NO! Is there a standard for when the crap hits the fan on the fire ground, not in particularly!!! Ok, yeah we have ICS, but ICS can't controll what the fire/ incident will do at all times. Every state, city, fire department, and fire chief would love to have their fighters trained at the same level, but the truth of the matter is this!!! It's impossible to do!! Why??? I'm glad you asked!
1. Each/Most departments should have a rank structure.
2. Most of the times they are ranked do to Years of experience and training cridentials. So therefore experience alone offsets the knowledge and skills that each member has.
3. If every body was trained at the same level, it would be great but you would probably have to many chiefs and not enough indians.
4. Cost is truly a factor.
5. Since we love TRADITION so much, lets through it in there as well.
The training is available to anyone that wants it. In-state and out-of-state. On page 5 there is a small scale break down of the course, without the standards that it cover. I did now list every scenario that we challenge the students with because it differs from class to class. We have an entrance test that must be passed before a candidate can be excepted into the course. It is composed of a 1.5 mile run in less than 12:00min, 45 consecutive situps, 25 consecutive pushups, 7Pullups, 12' balance beam walk with a 2'straight roll hose (the beam is only 4" off the ground), 100 ft areial ladder climb, and a 6 story upand down stair climb with two-2" hose carried on the shoulders.
Lutan1, I would love to give you a better break down of the course, but the fact of the matter is this, you might not appreciate like u would if you came to the class yourself. LOL.... JUST A LITTLE HUMOR!!! On page 5, as I stated, there is a small scale break down of the course. You can email me and I can talk you through the in and outs (scenarios) if you like.
It boils down to this. we know everybody in a single department can't take the course in a single setting, but if one or two members of a department can complete the course and return to his/her station and implement training abroad, we have did our job. I mean come on lets be realistic,,, how many departments can send ALL there guys to an NFPA 1001, 1002, 1033, or 1021? If you can, then where is the protection of your district?
For those of us that don't want to go back and veiw page 5, I'll make it easy for you. I'll paste it again.
Thanks and God Bless!
Reply by SmOkE DivEr on January 2, 2009 at 9:20pm
Delete Well I guess I waited long enough. Again, Let me thank you Charlie, and all you guys that have responded to the question. But first thing first! This was not an attempt to discredit anybody, their state, their program, or their abilities. I do value everybodies opinion, but this was not meant to say that I 'm better than you because I'm a Smoke Diver. If it seems that way, I apologize.
The statement I made concerning MS and Ga being the hardest was simply a little humor. Hopefully no-ones feelings were hurt and if it was, get over it.
1. The Mississippi Smoke Diver is designed to assist a fifghter (ANY FIIGHTER) in becoming more aware of not only his/her limitations, but also their ABILITIES.
2. It's not designed to make you a hero. What I meant by prestige is this; Because the course has a 50%-55% pass/fail rate and because it so physically and mentally demanding, there truly is a since of self pride w/ HUMILITY when the course is completed. When you graduate from this course you know that you have accomplished something great. You know that you have learned more about yourself as a fighter and a person than could you could have ever imagined that this course could have taught you. Not that you can go back and brag to your fellow fighters about what you've accomplished, but that you will know, with-in yourself, what you can do and in what areas you may need more training.
3. Concerning grammer, I think its a bad taste of character to bash someone because of a few mispelled words. If thats the only thing we have to worry about in our fire districts, then we've done well with fire prevention. But for the record, we will be sure to check and double check that grammer. I think, for the most part, WE GET THE PICTURE!
4. We have RIT classes in place, this is not one of them. We have firefighter survival classes, this is not it. We give a team (which may be two ff or three) four scenarios in the morning (before lunch) and we four after lunch. Each scenario/evolution must be completed before proceeding to the next. The scenarios for the week are composed of:
* Strucural fire fighting / Below Grade and Above Grade fires
* Victim Search and Rescue
* Search and Rescue with Fire or multiple fires
* 3D Pad Fires
* Controlled Pad Fires / Liquid Fires.... this is for hose handeling techniques.
* Rapelling (very little)
* Above Ground and Below Ground Maze Searches
* Collapse Rescue/ Fire Hose Rescue (this is not structural collapse) Hose Follow, find a down firefighter
* High Rise Hose Handeling and fire fighting
* Victim Carries, 185lb Dummy carried up 6 floors and back down
* Victims range from infants to fire fighters
* Clean Rescuse and Dirty Rescues
etc......
5. You tell me, who do you want on the hose line with you. The guy that wants more training, and gets it. Or the guy that sits around the fire eating ding dongs abd honey buns all day bashing everybody else that wants to better themselves.
6. To say that we (Mississippi) have the best or hardest SD Program is very much opinionated, but if I don't take pride in the courses we offer, who will. But trust me, I only said that because I knew I would get some feed back on it. LOL. You would just have to try yourself and see.
PUT UP OR SHUT UP.
7. SIMPLY PUT>>>>THE COURSE IS DESIGNED TO MAKE YOU A MUCH BETTER FIREFIGHTER! MENTALLY, AND PHYSICALLY.
8. Just because you have a standardized testing, does that alone make a fireman equal. NO! and this class is not desihned to make you equal. It promotes teamwork, and self will power. Bang for your Buck! Well I can't speak for other states and their SD program, but until this day, No Mississippi Smoke Diver has died in the Line of Duty (LODD). NONE!!! Does that makes us better, no it doesn't. Does it speak volumes for the course?? YES!!!
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I would be curious to see how your defintion of Smoke Diver is since many states let alone countries differ on their training. I am not saying what your course is , is not hard but only 2 states I know of have a class that compares to what we are discussing here.
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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Charlie,
I read the entire content of every one of your smoke diver posts. Failure to agree with you on every point does not equal failure to read your posts. Failure to blindly agree with you doesn't equal anything except a my differing opinion. On the other hand, you have not addressed several of my concerns, so I'll repeat a few of them.
1) With a finite training budget, I have to make those training dollars stretch as far as possible. That training budget includes the travel to whatever course my firefighters attend, regardles of those costs. Smoke diver is an exclusive class. "Exclusive' means that not everyone can attend. That means I can spend those dollars on training that will benefit a limited few, or I can spend them on training that will benefit every firefighter in my department.
2) I've stated more than once above that my department uses both our state fire academy Firefighter Survival and RIT classes and additional ones that were developed by members of our department who are well-qualified in the subject matter. That's not a "2-hour power point." That's a total of seven days of class that involves less than two full days of classroom information. You may think it's easier, but the skills list is validated from the proposed NFPA 1407 Training for Rapid Intervention Teams standard. Have you ever heard of or seen that standard? If you haven't, then you're going to have a difficult time explaining that your smoke diver class actually is validated, as you claim.
3) As a chief officer and training officer, I look for training that benefits my entire department. Smoke diver classes don't fit that category. When I show well-documented scientific research that backs up the facts that just being in good physical shape may not have a big impact on firefighter cardiac events, and the smoke diver proponents ridicule it and can't refute it with anything except their own personal opinion, that says "Sales Pitch" to me.
I'm not buying an unproven sales pitch that, even if accurate, has no direct benefit to the vast majority of firefighters.
4) Pushing a training program at the expense of obtaining SCBA that are NFPA compliant doesn't make any sense from a legal compliance standpoint, either. I just got home from my state's annual Firefighter Safety and Health conference, at our state fire academy. Some of the speakers were well-respected contributors to - Firefighter Nation, Firehouse Magazine, and other national fire publications. A couple of important concepts stated by those speakers;
"NFPA compliance will keep your firefighters safe, your department out of court, and the chief out of jail." Dave Dennison and Bill Tricarico Their point was that if you spend time on training that doesn't help you with NFPA compliance, then you're no focusing your training on the most important things.
"RIT ain't it." Christopher Naum Chris's point was that if we get to the point that we have to use RIT or firefighter emergency survival skills, then the system has already failed. He went on to state - and show years of examples - of how failures to pre-plan, failures to know the buildings in your first-due, failures to account for all personnel, freelancing by firefighters or even officers, and lack of good decisions by command and company officers account for most U.S. fireground LODDs.
Chris, Dave, and Bill all went on to strongly support the 16 National Firefighter Life Safety Initiatives published by the National Fire Academy and the National Fallen Firefighters Foundation. Those are not "cute quotes".
5) You still refuse to acknowledge that there are many validated and effective training classes and methodologies other in between smoke diver and watching a power point. Those are the kind of programs that benefit every firefighter, not just an elite few.
6) Fire departments should use NFPA-compliant SCBAs. My department purchases only NFPA-compliant SCBA with Universal Rescue Connectors. So does every other fire department in my area. I'm well aware of the costs of providing NFPA-compliant breathing apparatus to our firefighters, along with training in how to manage your own SCBA emergency and in how to transfill air to another firefighter in a variety of conditions.
NFPA-compliant SCBAs have proven, nationally-validated value to every firefighter that wears one to a fire. Smoke diver training benefits only the select few that attend.
You can pound the individual benefits all you want, but they are still individual - not group - benefits.
7) Smoke diver training won't benefit a firefighter that has a low-air emergency when no smoke diver is handy. Universal rescue connectors can and do help those firefighters, and they do it without interrupting the downed firefighter's air supply.
8) Ridiculing people that question your pet course's methodology, validation, or comparitive cost effectiveness doesn't seem to the the best sales tactic I've ever heard, either. Here's an example "Then they seem perplexed as to why the firefighter that attened the 2 hour powerpoint on survival got lost in real smoke conditions. Every member of my department and every department for miles around has had many hours of hands-on training in smoke and other blacked-out conditions. We don't rely on our "little data book", we rely on our years of experience and many hours per year of training. We just don't need to attend a smoke diver class in order to get it.
The bottom line is that our training should benefit every firefighter. Smoke diver training restricted to a select few will never be able to do that.
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There is a wide range of lifestyle choices between smoke diver and sedentary, and there are lifestyle choices more extreme than either of these as well.
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You don't have to attend a smoke diver class to reduce your risk of a line-of-duty heart attack, and you can learn techniques to avoid disorientation in smoke in other courses as well.
My concern isn't making all firefighters equal. My concern is spending my limited budget dollars on training that directly benefits all of my firefighters, not just a few. I have to pay training-related travel expenses (food, mileage, etc.) so having volunteer smoke diver instructors doesn't make the course cost-free to departments that send firefighters to it.
Standardized testing includes standards-based validation. If your smoke diver class varies from validated national standards, then I question if it's really valid or not.
PT in turnout gear isn't a validated firefighting skill. Job-related tasks are.
Hot zone SCBA cylinder changes are not validated firefighting skills - and NIOSH and OSHA discourage them. Universal rescue connectors are a national standard, and it takes me about 5 minutes to teach that as an initial skill to a brand-new recruit with only minimal SCBA experience.
And most importantly, being the best firefighter hasn't been validated as preventing a single LODD.
Well-trained company and command officers who use validated size-up, strategy, and tactical methodologies to keep their firefighers out of unsurvivable fireground situations will do a great deal to reduce LODD statistics. If your officer keeps you out of unsurvivable situations, you'll have a better chance of surviving it than if you're in it with any amount and type of individual training or skill set.
And...just because the course "is designed to make you a better firefighter", does it really do that? Are there measurable outcome changes in the real world that can be tracked back to the smoke diver course? And...if those changes occur, do they affect just the smoke divers, or do they affect the entire department.
When you say "...make you a better firefigher", that puts the focus on the individual. Smart chiefs focus on training that not only improves the individual, but improves the team.
Ben
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Nope, I'd have to quit firefighting and EMS first.
Maybe after I retire.
How about if I immigrate to OZ and run for PM after I retire? :-)
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