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Permalink Reply by Tony P on November 25, 2008 at 7:23am

"Is this fair? Why can't all citizens have this level of protection? " Is the New Zealand Fire Service large enough to give this sort of protection? I know damn well that my FRS isn't! We only have around 2300 vehicles and a nominal 60,000 volunteers. Part of our seasonal advertising is to remind people to not expect to see a fire truck outside their home if a bushfire comes calling.

Providing cover as described to all homeowners would be wonderful. Who is going to pay for it?

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Permalink Reply by Dennis Brown on November 25, 2008 at 8:32am

MONEY talks bull shit walks no this is not fair are these full time firefighters working on the side or just paid guys off the street

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Permalink Reply by Dennis Brown on November 25, 2008 at 8:43am

Sorry Mark i spoke befor i read as you see its the insureance companys that paid theses guys to do the work but i still ssay it not fair but in this day and time big companys win now days

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Permalink Reply by Jay Nicholson on November 25, 2008 at 10:26pm

Again money talks. During last years fire storm, a friend of mine stayed at his house during a mandatory evacuation order. By his estimates, he and some of his other neighbors saved many homes. Here's the problem. During the comment period for this development of these million dollar+ homes, the fire chief said no. This was deep into a valley. Poor road access and limited water supply. He advised the city that if(and this was a case of not of,but when) a large fire occurs in this area, he would not send resources into that area. The city approved the development against the chief advice.

Now the residences want to form their own VFD to protect their homes. They could probably even afford to hire out.

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Permalink Reply by Chris on November 26, 2008 at 3:29pm

Why wouldn't it be fair? if they are willing to pay for it more power to them. Thats like saying is it fair to have a bently when all i can have is a Ford.

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Permalink Reply by lutan1 on November 27, 2008 at 3:20am

I have no issue with it- if they can afford it, then let 'em be.

To also put a different spin on it, my company provides (hires) fire officers into industrial complexes to manage their fire responses, equipment maintenance, provide a first response capability- it's a user pay system. You can either afford it or you can't. Is there really a difference?

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Permalink Reply by Mark Montgomery on November 27, 2008 at 3:40am

But when the smelly excrement hits the air conditioning unit who's going to have to save their sorry backsides? Real live firefighters! Why? Because we all put saving lives first.

These people are not saving lives, just protecting selected properties, not for the owners but to cut the Insurance companies losses - get real please!

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Permalink Reply by lutan1 on November 27, 2008 at 3:49am

Don't underestimate external agencies Mark- I've got fully qualified firefighters on my books who have seen more red stuff in industry than others I know who are career staff with "real" fire brigades!

I also have a few clients who throw more money at their ERT's/fire fighters than many career or volunteer brigades....

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Permalink Reply by Mark Montgomery on November 27, 2008 at 3:55am

Lutan, what you are putting forward is, in my opinion, quite different.

We all endeavour to get the best return on the investment of our labour + knowledge + skills.

If you have useful skills, knowledge, etc., and someone whats to hire or contract you to do things for them based on that, what's wrong with that? Nothing.

This is not the case in California. There the issue is that these people have no real value, and based on the item that triggered this discussion "We have found some very reputable contractors and others that are less than reputable," and Roper said he's seen private trucks using flashing red lights and sirens, violating laws that allow such devices only on public emergency response vehicles.

Another problem is that whereas fire services normally have some legal basis for the tasks they perform, these people are unregulated so how do you police them if something bad happens?

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Permalink Reply by Mark Montgomery on November 27, 2008 at 4:09am

I don't doubt it at all Lutan.

In my professional work one of my clients is a medium size petroleum refinery and I work quite closely with their emergency services team who are also part of the health and safety team. I know many of their team have done overseas assignments and have experience that money cannot buy. You either get in the red heat of fire or you don't have it!

The refinery has more trucks and gear than the nearest paid fire service - check my photos to see some of them.

I am also aware that many volunteer firefighters actually have significantly more knowledge and experience than some of our paid counterparts. This is not a reflection on our paid counterparts, it simply shows the dedication of the volunteers and the fact they get to most calls their service received rather just the ones that occur in the 40+ or so hours the paid firefighter works each week.

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Permalink Reply by Mike Schlags (Captain Busy) Retd on November 27, 2008 at 4:57am

Hi Mark, I hope New Zealand is as wonderful as the pictures that I've been looking at trying to figure out what Australia and New Zealand are all about... Another good thing about the FFN and the ability to both network and share information. I've been reading the comments about the private response teams and read the article. The Captain quoted in the article has an office upstairs from mine and the guy's a straight forward, tell em' like it is kind of guy. I work in the Logistics Section and I have had the chance to gleam some additional information that will shed a different light on this discussion. First off, some facts:

> No matter where you work, there will never be enough fire engines and personnel to protect all of the homes. Period.
> Even if there were, water pressure went down to nothing, no water = no way to put out a fire, even though it's really small to begin with.
> While I never heard about these private insurance company paid contractors before, I did take note that one of the principals was a retired Fire Chief from Southern California. It sure sounds like the entrepreneurial spirit is alive and well. My personal opinion is that this is a great service to offer. The cost for applying foam to a house is not cheap and uses at least 10 gallons of AFFF foam per structure. Ka Ching! This is an extreme cost for a municipality to deal with. If you can afford a higher level of fire protection then God Bless you. By simply treating homes ahead of the fire, people can leave and no one will be in harms way. Many of these homes were surrounded by dense vegetation and high relief issues (topography). Slope driven fires are not easily controlled. With the resources on hand, and with lack of water pressure, many homes were saved by local and mutual aid firefighters. The private firms ahead of the fire may or may not have done any good, dependent upon where the houses were that they pre-treated. Firefighters made a heroic and successful effort to contain the fire and prevent it from reaching deeper into Montecito and toward the ocean. The big difference this incident for us was the first time use of helicopters with night vision capabilities. We ended up flying 24/7 and when a home went up, we had four helicopters making immediate air drops to cool the fire and reduce the intensity. The out of control structure fires produce HUGE embers that travel and catch other things on fire, including other structures. Using the choppers to keep the larger fires in check prevented the kind of extended incident that we have seen in the past.
In regard to the private firefighters, I did hear one story about a private hot shot crew from somewhere in Central California. I believe it's an all hispanic hot shot team and here's what I heard about this "private" contractor. They were given an assignment with an estimate 5 to 7 hour time frame to accomplish punching in a line on a steep mountainside. Two hours later, they returned and asked what other work they had for them. These men and women were obviously highly motivated and kicked ass. I'd work next to them any day.
I cannot draw a distinction in my head when someone tries to compare whether one group is better because they work for the government, another one volunteers, and another is a private contractor. As long as we are all safety conscious, talk to one another and coordinate our resources, we will start to see even more success in how we accomplish suppressing wildfires in the wildland urban interface.

TCSS, Mike

http://s250.photobucket.com/albums/gg272/mschlags/?action=view&...;"/>' />

Santa Barbara Tea Fire as seen from the end of Stearns Wharf looking over the water toward the city. Photo by me... : )

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Permalink Reply by Mark Montgomery on November 27, 2008 at 5:22am

Thanks for you take on this Mike as it is difficult from 1/2 way round the world to get a handle on this.

We do have some private firefighting capability here in New Zealand but only for wildland fires and certainly not for structure protection.

I am aware of the paid wildland crews the US as my Fire Boss (Principal Rural Fire Officer) deployed as part of an ANZAC crew to Boise a couple of years ago and ran such a crew in Washington State. Said he went ahead on foot to scout and mark the the course for a fireline. When he got to the point that had been identified as the end point he found the Mexican crew was only 1/2 a mile behind him and coming up fast!

I don't see a problem with theses wildland crews, but I am concerned at the precedent that is being set here. I would suggest that probable demands citizens will make it that all their houses are treated the same way.
Who will foot the bill if this becomes the norm and you guys are sent out ahead of the fire to treat houses in this way.
What happens to the attack resources?
What will happen, due to the up slope location of the home, etc., when it burns down despite the pre-fire protection being applied, who will get sued? The Fire Department and the firefighters involved!
The Insurance Companies won't nor will their contractors because they have all the dollars!

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