The Social Network & Community JUST for Firefighters
Civilians
A recent thread has brought out some different views on an aspect of the fireground. So I thought we could see what is done in different places, and why. What I don’t want is for this thread to degenerate into insults. We do things differently, for different reasons. I’m the curious type, I like to know things.
Civilians helping on the fireground. By civilians I mean anyone other than a recognised firefighter. Now that in itself raises a question. What is a recognised firefighter? In many places in the US it appears to be someone who has attained FF1 and FF2. Here, in my little part of the world – an Australian State about the same size as Kentucky, if that makes it easier for anyone, we do things our way. Volunteers are taken in and put through a part time recruit course which gets them to our most basic FF level – Wildfire Firefighter. All volunteers go through this training first, then more levels can be worked for depending on the fire risk profile of their individual Brigade. (I don’t particularly agree with that last sentence, but I don’t run our Fire Service) We have one Fire Service that controls most of the State – over 1200 Fire Brigades and over 50,000 volunteers. We also have several hundred career firefighters, I won’t go into their training. Any firefighter is allowed onto any fireground, but is only allowed to perform duties for which they have attained the qualification. That is how we recognise a firefighter. How do we recognise a civilian? Anyone else, basically. Juniors aren’t allowed on the fireground. We don’t have the Explorer program.
Now come the ‘what ifs’.
1. We’re short handed (who isn’t at some time?) at a structure fire. A person comes up to the IC and offers to help. Normally, they’ll be told thanks, but no thanks. Perhaps though there’s a need to drag a lot of hose to the nearest hydrant. Should the IC allow the civilian to assist? I know of it happening, but I don’t agree with it. Injuries would cause headaches.
2. There’s a huge wildfire. Should we allow untrained civilians to volunteer their services? We used to do this all the time, as recently as 1983 (a year any Australian firefighter will know about I think). We no longer allow this to happen. A farmer may very well be fighting the fire on his own or a neighbouring property, but that’s a different case. We no longer allow casual volunteers. Methods of fighting fires have changed drastically, and require people trained in those methods. Wildfires are too dangerous to mess around with.
3. There’s a bad MVA. A civilian is first on the scene and starts giving 1st Aid. Fire arrive (we’re usually there first), ambulance close behind (separate service here, but the idea carries on), then police. Should we as Fire (and only 1st Aid trained, not EMT) tell the person to move away? After all, he/she may be higher qualified than we are! Should the Paramedics tell the person to leave, should the Police? OK, chances are that person will be left assisting until the Paramedics say differently – they’re in charge of the scene if there’s no fire.
So now it’s your turn. You don’t have to stick to my cases, they may not fit your operations or experience. It’s the general idea I’m interested in. You should be able to see where I and/or my FRS sit on this sort of thing. Again, please note, no insults, no nastiness, no attacking people. If those sorts of thing happen the thread will close.
Civilians helping on the fireground. By civilians I mean anyone other than a recognised firefighter. Now that in itself raises a question. What is a recognised firefighter? In many places in the US it appears to be someone who has attained FF1 and FF2. Here, in my little part of the world – an Australian State about the same size as Kentucky, if that makes it easier for anyone, we do things our way. Volunteers are taken in and put through a part time recruit course which gets them to our most basic FF level – Wildfire Firefighter. All volunteers go through this training first, then more levels can be worked for depending on the fire risk profile of their individual Brigade. (I don’t particularly agree with that last sentence, but I don’t run our Fire Service) We have one Fire Service that controls most of the State – over 1200 Fire Brigades and over 50,000 volunteers. We also have several hundred career firefighters, I won’t go into their training. Any firefighter is allowed onto any fireground, but is only allowed to perform duties for which they have attained the qualification. That is how we recognise a firefighter. How do we recognise a civilian? Anyone else, basically. Juniors aren’t allowed on the fireground. We don’t have the Explorer program.
Now come the ‘what ifs’.
1. We’re short handed (who isn’t at some time?) at a structure fire. A person comes up to the IC and offers to help. Normally, they’ll be told thanks, but no thanks. Perhaps though there’s a need to drag a lot of hose to the nearest hydrant. Should the IC allow the civilian to assist? I know of it happening, but I don’t agree with it. Injuries would cause headaches.
2. There’s a huge wildfire. Should we allow untrained civilians to volunteer their services? We used to do this all the time, as recently as 1983 (a year any Australian firefighter will know about I think). We no longer allow this to happen. A farmer may very well be fighting the fire on his own or a neighbouring property, but that’s a different case. We no longer allow casual volunteers. Methods of fighting fires have changed drastically, and require people trained in those methods. Wildfires are too dangerous to mess around with.
3. There’s a bad MVA. A civilian is first on the scene and starts giving 1st Aid. Fire arrive (we’re usually there first), ambulance close behind (separate service here, but the idea carries on), then police. Should we as Fire (and only 1st Aid trained, not EMT) tell the person to move away? After all, he/she may be higher qualified than we are! Should the Paramedics tell the person to leave, should the Police? OK, chances are that person will be left assisting until the Paramedics say differently – they’re in charge of the scene if there’s no fire.
So now it’s your turn. You don’t have to stick to my cases, they may not fit your operations or experience. It’s the general idea I’m interested in. You should be able to see where I and/or my FRS sit on this sort of thing. Again, please note, no insults, no nastiness, no attacking people. If those sorts of thing happen the thread will close.
Replies to This Discussion
-
Permalink Reply by Michael Vito on
-
That's a good question Tony,
We've been taught as I think as everyone here in the FFN that every situation must be handled by our very own (FF or EMS personnel) only.
But in our world (Philippines), we have lots of experience of poor crowd control. We have no choice but let them help as far on hose pulling and outside operations only. Especially, when we respond to a heavy or densely populated areas or poor neighborhoods. Then add the factor of few hydrants, narrow streets and lack of security force personnel. We are outnumbered by civilians vs.FFs. Then worst a big wildland-like fire that consumes several houses in few minutes, and lost of families lost their homes = to a unhappy crowd.
Then crowd becomes a mob. And sometimes its like a war zone in which sometimes we've been cutoff of the rest of the group. Depending how good is your fire officer or firefighters on dealing the crowd - we must learn to be tactful and try to persuade the crowd to back off - if not. We let them help, and we cannot ignore them. Sometimes crowd are annoying and ignorant - sometimes I've experience debating in the middle of a big fire. If the Fire Officer or firefighters does not handle the situations properly. FF's can ended up being shot at, stabbed, or the apparatus windshield gets a rocky projectile (in my ten year of service - never experience that - only hose snatching or tackling). This situations happens in few seconds....swinging to put the situations to an order or complete anarchy.
Now a days, where I live. Our volunteer and career FF plight personal safety was improved. SWAT teams are able to catch up on us and provide protections and plus traffic enforcers added a huge help in crowd control. But still there are few areas in Metro Manila still lacked the ability to control the crowd.
photo by Jonathan See (courtesy of APVFBI photo). The engine was cutoff from the rest of the group. no hydrants and water supply was too dammed far from the main street. The FF improvise, organizing a impromtu bucket relay from a tap water!
-
Permalink Reply by Tony P on
-
I'm going to tell my mates - we don't have problems here! You do the best you can with what you've got.
-
-
yup, adapt and improvise. Surprisingly we don't have an LODD case like this situations since the 1960's as far as I remember. Only FF's get injured or their apparatus ended up left to burn in place.
one more to add, if we cannot control the situation. We dropped everything (drop the nozzle and hose) and pull our truck out. Then we wait at the staging area until the SWAT units to show up.
-
Permalink Reply by kenny goines on
-
IMHO civilians have absolutely no place on any emergency scene, that is why we have law enforcement for crowd control
-
Permalink Reply by Jenny Holderby on
-
#1. We usually don't have civilians doing anything on a fire scene. If they ask to help, we might ask them to round up some water for the firefighters or help get the crowd back away from the scene so we can get equipment in or out if we are starting a water shuttle. IF we have a couple volunteer & they can drag the hose to the hydrant, in an extreme case we just might let them.
#2. Times have changed. In the past, we did allow land owners or neighbors to continue to fight the fire. We have the training & experience. We would explain this to the owner or other civilians & ask them to allow us to do our job.
We might send them to direct other fire fighters in if its off the main road or ask them to let their neighbors know that we are working on the fire. We might ask them to have their neighbors clear around their homes & maybe get their garden hoses ready to wet down roofs & around homes. (Most of this is to keep them occupied doing something they believe will help.) In some cases if you don't make allies you could end up battling them as well as the fire.
#3. MOST of the time, when responders get there whoever is trying to help is greatful you are there & will get out of your way. Usually civilians who are seriously trying to help are nurses or doctors (we have medical folks all over since we have 2 hospitals & a med school and a number of rehab & nursing homes close) and will identify themselves as such. Many times it is absolutely evident that they are not trained. I will approach them & identify myself, tell them that the Paramedics are on the way & ask if they are ok or if they would like me to take it from there. Most civilians with no medical training will exit at this point. In some cases I have also asked that they please move out of the way to allow the firefighters to get in there to do their job. IF the civilian helping is holding c-spine, they are going to stay right there until the medics move them. :) We do a lot of assessment before the squad gets or will begin extricaton. WHEN we are doing extrication, ALL CIVILIANS must move away from the vehicle. NO EXCEPTIONS.
-
-
In some cases if you don't make allies you could end up battling them as well as the fire.
Hey Jenny, seems we had the same problem. The good thing in your case is conducted in as much as orderly fashion. Recently, I was even surprised. When a yellow tape (at last!!!) was setup at the scene. To keep the crowd back. In my city where I live, It's been a long time since 2003 that we experience a General Alarm. It seems the trend is improving.
-
-
(hehehe) I have come upon more than one home/land owner with a shot gun particularly in some of the hollows.
-
Permalink Reply by Mark Montgomery on
-
This would be nice Kenny, but where I am we might wait an hour or more for Police to arrive, if they aren't busy!
-
-
Good questions Tony, very thought provoking.
Civilians can be a blessing or a curse. I am always amazed at MVA's at 0300 way out in the country when there seems to be a rent-a-crowd in their pajamas that simply seem to materialise out of the grass alongside the road - no houses within sight.
Back to the questions you pose.
1. We, like everyone else, has some level of rules or laws that say firefighters (paid and volunteer) do what they need to without getting civilians involved in their activities. Having said that I have always been grateful to those who do offer to assist, even if you have to turn them down. You need to show gratitude, and if you get a chance talk to them about a more formal offer of service, especially if you are part of a volunteer unit. SELL, SELL, SELL.
2. Big wildfire, New Zealand laws says the property owner can stay and protect what is theirs, but otherwise we move them on really quick. The last thing you want to be doing is using your precious firefighters to protect civilians that won't leave!
3. MVA's is one area where the rules are somewhat different, at least here. Levels of first aid training within our communities and workforces is quite high. If someone is already doing first aid and seem to be competent at it I will always ask if they are OK, but if they say they are will then get on with the many other things we need to do. If they aren't OK carrying on then you need to step in and take over. Remember to thank them! Get someone to record their details, Police and perhaps the Coroner may need that information later on.
-
-
It can take them a while here to. But you know hose streams can accidentaly make contact with an unruly person/crowd. They work really well for pit bulls that dont want you around thier house too!!
-
-
Unfortunately here turning a hoseline on a person can be deemed to be assault and I am aware of cases where firefighters have been charged. To my knowledge none have been convicted. Using the hoseline on dogs, I have no problem with at all.
You must remember that the civilians generally outnumber the firefighters at a scene, they are often recording the event, and are keenly observing all that is happening, even if they don't understand it all.
-
Permalink Reply by anne potter on
-
We don't let people help only because of insurance reasons.... Now days the one who helps on the scene trips over a hose is now sueing you for being on the scene...Kinda of sad.... Car accident occ public helping but usaually glad to see us and happy to hand over the reins,unless MD or a nurse or fellow medic.....
© 2024 Created by Firefighter Nation WebChief.
Powered by
