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Fires in CA
I have been wanting to be a firefighter for several years, put myself through a Basic Fire Academy, myself and many other friends show up at every department test we can along with several hundred to thousands of people... I even work in a fire department full time on the ambulance program.
But today there are huge fires just 5 miles from my own home, and I am watching on TV houses and apartments burn down with no firefighters on scene cause there is not enough resources.
I know I am new to the fire service and still have lots to learn, but I don't get how houses can be burning out of control when there are thousands of people desperately wanting to get out there and help. I know there must be some reasons... but in my mind it doesn't make sense since I wanna be out there helping but instead just watch it on TV.
Here is a view of the smoke over my house this afternoon...
But today there are huge fires just 5 miles from my own home, and I am watching on TV houses and apartments burn down with no firefighters on scene cause there is not enough resources.
I know I am new to the fire service and still have lots to learn, but I don't get how houses can be burning out of control when there are thousands of people desperately wanting to get out there and help. I know there must be some reasons... but in my mind it doesn't make sense since I wanna be out there helping but instead just watch it on TV.
Here is a view of the smoke over my house this afternoon...
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by T.J. on
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It's all about money, I'm only guessing here and going off my department, you can't go out and hire thousands of people just to fight a couple of fires. That what mutial aid is for and the forest service. I've never faught a wildland fire as big as those in S. Cal. but I'm guessing there's probably a lost zone, by lost zone I mean where there's nothing they can do to save property, remember life is first and if your house is facing the wind then there's not much that can be done. I know Mike will chime in on this subject as soon as he reads this and he's from S. Cal.
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Permalink Reply by Jason Laudadio on
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Yeah... that makes sense. I guess just wanting and trying so hard to get the job, it is so sad watching places burn with no one there to do a thing about it. You would think they would take volunteers or paid-on call firefighters or something at the very least. I would do an on-call thing for the experience and to get my foot in the door somewhere. ya know?
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Thanks for the info Randall, they can stay and defend their property if they wish, they wont go to jail and we can't make them leave only advise them of the ricks that lie a head for them if they do stay. I can't see a garden hose doing much good for a fire out in S. Cal.
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Permalink Reply by Mark Montgomery on
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Jason
This really definitely is not the sort of fire you want to tangle with without a lot of training and some really experienced people around and in charge of what you are doing. I know you feel frustrated and helpless but without being part of a well trained and organized group your life could be snuffed out real quick with this type of fire.
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I know I don't have any real experience... but have done the basic wildland training in the Basic Fire Academy. So watching houses burn down with no one in sight... I would think there would be some way to staff epxerienced with unexperienced to at least do protection for exposures. Take reserve engines and do some structure protection. I know there must be lots of politics... but with how many people that have lost their homes in the last 48 hours, there ha to be something more that can be done.
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I really do feel for you and I'm sorry to say this but I'm glad I don't live out there and please don't take that wrong, it's just mother nature at her worst work out there, watch the video that Randall has the link to. They've actually got above water tanks to defend their own homes with, it's a pretty cool idea. But I truely feel that there is NO need to put people's lives in danger to save a home.
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Houses can be rebuilt - people can't!
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Just a reminder to one and all with these types of fire.
Do not self-task
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Permalink Reply by Mike Schlags (Captain Busy) Retd on
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" I know Mike will chime in on this subject as soon as he reads this and he's from S. Cal."
Dear Brother T.J. How can I say this... and still acknowledge you as a friend and brother... your guessing is way off base and I need to take a moment as I grab you around the neck in a full nelson and give you sh*t for not having the big picture in mind here... We have the US Forest Service, but their mission is not structural firefighting... it's ours. And when you get a wildfire(s) this big, people are going to be there, some refusing to leave their homes and getting burned in the process of trying to protect their structures. Take the denominator of massive population amounts and folks in the panic mode, lots of smoke, people screaming, cars getting stuck in traffic, total chaos... but we can and do deal with these incidents!
1. Money is secondary when it comes to incidents like this. We throw all available resources at these things and have had immeasurable successes now that we are using not only helicopters but also use the FLIR (forward looking infared) which means they can make night drops now with buckets of water. We used to have to stop when it got dark. Now they can go 24/7 and this made a tremendous difference with cooling some of the house fires off, preventing igniting the one next door. We also use the newer concept of outfitting a DC-10 with a ton of phoschek fire retardant. If you don't think these two things alone don't cost of few coins...
2. Hiring thousands of people... we now have a fire season that is 365 days a year. We live in an arid desert and the population is growing every year, including living in places that used to be called wilderness. No matter how many people we have, it would never be enough. Embers from these fires travel and get lodged on things that burn like peoples roofs, decks and outbuildings. Radiant heat from the fire also ignites combustibles inside. We simply do not have one fire engine and crew per house... We also don't fight just a couple of fir T.J. At least in my case, it's year round and we are really good at this stuff. Regardless, we do pretty damn good using mutual aid to literally give us 1000's of firefighters. The problem is that when you get this many incidents, your resources get depleted.
3. No such thing as a lost zone... never heard the terminology... What you do get are unique conditions that include factors such as weather, topography and sheer luck. Some houses make it and others don't. When fire travels, it behaves identical to how a flash flood travels down a gully. If it hits an obstruction like a rock, it goes around it. The same with wildfire. If something like a topographical feature is in the way, the fire moves around it. In these cases, fire hits some houses and leaves others alone. Roll the dice... and this conversation does not even touch on assessing the structure, owner preparations before the incident even occurred, etc. Bottom line T.J. is that none of us want to even think of an area being lost. We never give up.
4. Tons of houses "facing the wind" survived just fine if they were built correctly. Concrete houses with no exposed roof eves and things that can communicate fire into the structure interior cannot be there. I've watched major wildfires blow through a residential area and noted that fire resistive construction houses can actually survive. If you had the time to foam your house prior to the onslaught of the fire storm, your house would still be standing there. Problem is though that you need up to 10 gallons of AFFF per house... and there just isn't enough time to do this specially when you are dealing with 75mph winds. Embers fly and catch everything that can burn on fire...
5. When we condition houses in the wildland urban interface, we require them to have a minimum of 5,000 gallons of stored / dedicated fire protection water with a 2.5 inch Jones head wharf hydrant style water source. We also condition the property to have up to 300-feet clearance and more if the house is on a slope.
There's so much to share and discuss, but it's not about the money but instead it's about using knowledge, technology and resources to handle these massive incidents.
And Jason, I can feel your pain as we both watch these out of control brush fires burn house after house. Remember, these fires pop up and immediately overwhelm local resources. That is why we have a mutual aid plan that brings in firefighters from all over the state and country. We have one of the most aggressive mutual aid systems in the state. My department is one of the contract counties for the State of California. With that title comes responsibilities for having to respond anywhere in the state as needed. Problem is though that we have a drawdown maximum that permits only so many folks to go out of county on mutual aid. We always leave a force in place should the one hit here, like it did...
TCSS, Mike Schlags, Fire Captain / Santa Barbara County Fire Department
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WOW, thanks for clearing that up Mike, now when you say, AFFF your home, do you mean the home owners do this and not you, and if so how do they get the foam?
A lot more than I thought of, I guess when you see it on the news it seems that no ones ever around. Don't take this the wrong way Mike but I would think that you'd be better in trying to stop the fire from spreading and assisting the Forest Service than worrying about a home that's a total lose. Just different techniques I guess.
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Permalink Reply by Tony P on
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Why are there no firefighters visible? One reason might be that CalFire has officially closed the fire season and let go all of their seasonal firefighters... (According to a post on this subject elsewhere)
Why are there no firefighters trying to save the houses? That's another story. Here, we advise people not to expect to see a firetruck outside their home if a bushfire is in the area. Why? Because we'll all be out trying to do something about the main fire. Nobody has enough trucks or people to stop a huge urban interface fire. Check this video, you'll see what it can be like close up:
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=GPXN4dbuhaQ
The firefighters you saw in the video were structural firefighters, they had structural firefighting vehicles. There was nothing they could do. I think they lost five almost new appliances in that fire. A lot of trucks for a relatively small Fire Service. (It might be the national capitol of Australia, but it's really only a big town, not a large city)
With that said, I still understand your frustration. But to call for volunteers to run in and help is the making of a disaster. Back in 1983 we had 200 fires on one day that killed 14 volunteer firefighters, 33 civilians, destroyed 2090 homes and burned 210,000 hectares of land (519,000 acres). That was in just one state, Victoria (about the same size as Kentucky). South Australia also had terrible losses. The media kept calling for volunteers to go and help. The media, not the Fire Service. The casual volunteers caused more harm than good in many cases. If we were to have another set of fires like that ad-hoc volunteers would simply not be allowed near the firefront, the police would be blocking roads everywhere. Your idea of putting one experienced crew leader with a crew of inexperienced FF's will not happen here, as a qualified (with a little experience) structural and wildfire firefighter I would only want one newbie in a five person crew in fires like that!
I'm sure Mike will be telling us more when he has a chance. Even though he's off the fireground for a while, I'm sure he has more than enough to do right now. Seeing as those fires are in his backyard.Edited this out as Mike is on, and was posting at the same time as me!
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People can purchase their own AFFF and pumps and do so. Problem is that there is not enough time to react and pre-treat your house.
Don't believe what you see on the news. They get there before we do, and remember that our resources are limited to begin with. We call in mutual aid but it takes time...
Putting out or cooling a burning structure as you see is done so to prevent further embers from catching the houses that you don't see in the photo of video across the street or down the block... Don't forget RECEO and the Exposures part...
Not just different techniques but better training, experience and education. That is why I am sharing these perspectives with you brother... too make you a better firefighter.
As always... TCSS, Mike
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