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Drafting
I would like to know how many departments still draft from a lake or pond or river because this is part of are driver training is it a thing of the past ?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Mark Montgomery on
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Cheers Mike
Stay safe, Mark
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Permalink Reply by united 289..{Dave} on
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Cool. Yeah we do the same for fill site.
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Permalink Reply by Tony P on
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Brigade next to us has put together the following:
Mercedes Benz all-wheel drive
BMW motorbike engine
Godiva pump.
It'll fill 4 x 3000 litre tankers in not many more minutes from a static source. Nice to have around...
Quickfill pumps? The joy of going to one of those on a creek somewhere in the middle of the night... Still, better than having to set up and draft yourselves though!
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"it's not my job". I hope I never hear that said! I can't even imagine what the disciplinary action would be.
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Permalink Reply by Barbara Nelson on
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Here in our district we have 107 square miles and 3 small towns. Only two of the small towns have hydrants. The other town and in the country they do not. We use tender shuttles with porta tanks if we are near one of the towns but if it is farther out we do use ponds or streams for our water supply. We are very versed in drafting.
We had a farm fire that involved a barn and 4 sheds and part of a field. I was drafting from 2 1,500 gal porta tanks. Had two 5 inch supply lines one each to an engine. An 1" 3/4 preconnect to the barn and an 1"1/2 line. I had 10 tenders shuttleing for water. It was quite a show. Here is the link to the TV news http://www.kptv.com/gooddayoregon/17196812/detail.html
You never know when your hydrant system may fail and you always need a back up plan. I think all engineers should know how to draft. Your mutual aid areas may not have hydrants. Always be prepared.
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Permalink Reply by Alex on
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well in the community our fire department is in.there is a local Wildlife Pond which takes up maybe ten fifteen acres and we do draft water from it occasionally,but we try to keep taking water from the regular fire hydrants
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I do have a question with this discussion on drafting. Those of us that depends on drafting. How often do you have to start a draft during pump operation at a working structure fire and do you shut down your operation to do so?
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Permalink Reply by T. Crookshank on
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No, drafting should never stop the fire attack. There are many ways to do shuttle runs, depending on the resources at hand, the community layout, department SOGs, etc.
For example.
Let's say these are your resources:
E1 - pumper with 1500 GPM output, 1000 gallon tank.
E2 - trip axle pumper with 1250 GPM output and a 2000 gallon tank
W1 - water tanker with 3000 gallon tank.
Since E1 has more output and a smaller tank, that'll be the fire attac apparatus.
E1 pulls up to a working structure fire and begins fire attack. IC does size up and notifies all home units that a shuttle service will be necessary. When E2 arrives, they deploy dump tank and drop their water supply and immediately run to the nearest draft source.
W1 does same, and connects the first dump tank to the second with a jet siphon. Now E1 is fighting the fire with E2 and W1 shuttling water continuously. If additional resources are necessary, the next arriving apparatus joins fire attack.
I'm a rookie, so I'm sure there will be some corrections forthcoming, and that's good. But you see the basic point: fire attack should not stop for drafting operations, or vice versa.
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Permalink Reply by Jenny Holderby on
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Dave,
I've been thinking about this one since you posted it. I know there are variables all over the place but. .
Once you START pumping, unless you run out of water & have to stop your pump (God forbid) there shouldn't be any reason for you to stop to take on more water if you have the resources you need. Tankers can offload into your truck without you shutting down. Dump tanks can be set up for them to dump into so that all you have to do is open your tank fill to keep the water coming in. (I'm not a pump operator & I do forget things I don't use so I could be wrong). If your demand is greater than your supply call more help OR cut down your gpms a bit to save water until you get more resources. The effect of 80 or 90 gpm instead of 100 gpm isn't that great on a good size fire but it can give you time to get your water supply replenished and it won't have the same effect as completely stopping your operation.
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Wow. Got two good thoughts. Although this wasn't the response that I was looking for. Like to break this down. But do it in a teaching manner and all can learn from this.
To start you are both correct. You should never shut your pump operations down to start a draft with the same engine.
First Let's look at T. Crookshank thoughts
"Since E1 has more output and a smaller tank, that will be the fire attack apparatus."
In water movement you should have your largest pump capacity at your fill site. The reason is so you can have the required water flow to your dump site. But sense, in this case your largest pump is also with the least amount of water capacity. Your Decision to put your largest pump capacity and the smallest tank capacity at the scene I feel was a good decision.
"E1 pulls up to a working structure fire and begins fire attack. IC does size up and notifies all home units that a shuttle service will be necessary. When E2 arrives, they deploy dump tank and drop their water supply and immediately run to the nearest draft source."
Question. You are already in pump operation and in fire attack mode. How do you plan on starting your draft? What size intake will you use?
There is so much more that we go into. It would take more time than allotted.
Now lets look at Jenny's thoughts.
"Tankers can offload into your truck without you shutting down."
What size intake will you have your tankers off load in?
If you say a 2 1/2. You will not have the water flow required on a sizeable fire. Correct? Then what will you do?
"Dump tanks can be set up for them to dump into so that all you have to do is open your tank fill to keep the water coming in."
You need a draft started before you open tank fill.
You are already in pump operation and in fire attack mode. How do you plan on starting your draft? What size intake will you use? Using the same set up that T. Crookshank used.
Any more thoughts here. Hopefully we all can learn here.
Dave
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Permalink Reply by FETC on
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The effect of 80 or 90 gpm instead of 100 gpm isn't that great on a good size fire but it can give you time to get your water supply replenished and it won't have the same effect as completely stopping your operation.
I can show you case study of brothers who died trying to fight an interior fire with 85-90gpm when they thought they were flowing 125gpm. HUGE effect!
Todays BTU's need even more gpms. Target should be 180 per line. We use 175/75 #45NR nozzles on 1.75" attack lines.
I hope we are calculating drafting, supply and fire flows greater than that post...
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I will have to agree with you on your flow.
This is where i said we could get much deeper on this subject. Right now I am not sure we want to get that deep. That is why I didn't go there.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Dave
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