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Firemen Going to Medical Calls that are not Medically Trained!
On my department a lot of our calls are medical calls and we've got 15-20 fireman that are medical trained for this reason and the ambulance will call use when they need assistance. But we get quite a few fireman that show up that are not trained at all, they might have cpr but thats it. Nobody seems to care about this that we've got untrained people trying to help out at medical calls. My question is, is this even legal and what would happen if it would ever go to court and what can be done to try to stop it. I just dont want a lawsuit and the other fireman are like it'll never happen, maybe I'm over reacting here I dont know.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by lutan1 on
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The Good Samaritan laws here in Oz are pretty clear, regardless of what your role is- if you act outside of your training, then you're not covered by it. (ie: you do a tracheotomy and are only trained in CPR, then you have a problem!)
BTW, if you want to know how to do a trachy- check out Wiki!!!! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tracheotomy
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Permalink Reply by Joey "BigShow" De Piano on
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I agree to a point but you kind of answer your own question there by saying they are there to HELP now it would be easy enough to put SOPs saying they can't and stop it but before you take it that far don't cut off your nose to spite your face and what I am saying is they come to help and you have to admit at times we all need it through this help some might take on ems courses others not BUT ask yourself as fire fighter would you want ems responding to a MVA or Fire and instead of helping jumping in?..No and how do we prevent it obviously gear and training but also SOPS but how many times during a fire or during a mva while your in the car or coming out to rehab is the person handing you what you need ems only?...This is why there is so much in fighting i understand your point but you know what we are all there for the same job so lets get r done and go home and sort it out later in reports, just my outlook.
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Permalink Reply by Jenny Holderby on
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Do you mean that your department operates an ambulance service? If so then the responsibility falls on the department or who ever underwrites your program. What training does your Medical staff have? Are they Medics & EMTs? Who certifies them? A lot of the liability depends on how the laws are written in your state. Most states have soverign immunity or Sunshine laws that say an individual cannot be sued for assisting in an emergency.
Doesn't your dept have a protocol for medical calls? If so, it should be followed and if not, your officers should see that it is enforced. If you don't have an SOG, then writing/adopting one might be a good idea.
My department has assisted the local EMS provider since before they started training first responders. We were trained by the medics on how we could assist them. However, now we do have trained first responders called out automatically with EMS for cardiac, trauma, loss of blood, falls or shortness of breath or when EMS will be delayed because they are out of the area, returning from transport or out of service for some reason and the next closest unit is enroute. First responders work through and under the EMS company and are covered under FD insurance as well. When first responders are called, only qualified units respond. We also have several EMTs on the department. Occassionally depending on who is responding from where the driver of the vehicle may not be a certified first responder. If the call is between where the 1R is and the fire station, a ff may meet them @ the scene with the equipment. Occassionally the whole dept is alerted for CPR or a mulitple patient call.
How do the ffs try to help out? We have moved furniture, removed animals, distracted family members or children, done crowd control, provided lighting or any number of other details EMS doesn't have personnel to handle.
If the call is in my neighborhood, I will report to EMS if they are onscene or do what I can to help until they arrive.
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Permalink Reply by FFF on
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Of course we want as many people as possible to respond to mva, ff and emt. Previously in our district ff were allowed to go to fire and all rescues...but not to strickly medical calls in a persons home. What happens then you have way to many people trying to help. Although for y specific township (our district covers 4 towns) out of about 35-40 vol....2 are medics, about 10 are emt-b or emt-i and 3 are first responders plus we have one of our towns manned with medics/ff 24-7 also going to every call also.
So my thought was....it was working fine until someone starting going to all calls regardless what it is. Now of course we don't have as many fire/rescues as we used...so the newer people want to go just to get some action, which lead to many non-medically trained personnel in someones home. They usually end up with nothing to do because there is enough fr/emt/medics. Standing around leads to boredom, bad timed comments/jokes which friends and family are bound to hear.
We have had an occasion when a none medical trained person didn't no about lifting the patient and didn't ask for help...dropped his side of the back board. We have had an accosion were an untrained ff got to the scene first and was just standing there holding a pnb baby...just freaking out and eyes as big as saucers. I could tell ou more and I am sure that many other people could do the same.
I know none of the ff would do anything harmful on purpose...but without the proper training there are more possiblilties. Some might think that things won't happen....but when it does then what.
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Permalink Reply by Terri on
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In our town, our fire department works VERY closely with EMS. We have trained them in CPR/First Aid, C-spine immobilization, extrication, etc. When we roll on a wreck, our fire department is automatically toned out. The last major MVC I worked (9 people, including one 18 month old)...medics triaged, then fire fighters started extricating as we tended to the most critical. It is so awesome to know we work so well together, and our firemen go out of their way to show up on our calls. But they all know we back them up on everything too. (Have even stood on the other end of that hose a time or two to help them out.) One of the first things our fire chief requires of new volunteers is for them to take EMS training. By that I don't mean EMT, etc. But we developed a course for them to give them the basics of CPR/First Aid/Extrication. They love it. And a lot of our people wear two hats, both Fire and EMS. You have to do that in a small town.
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Permalink Reply by Ron Ayotte on
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In Massachusetts, all firefighters and police officers are required to have first responder training. Itis a 24 hour course on "the basics" with 8 hours of refresher training a year.
My FD is a career department, 95% of our personnel are EMT-B's, with three members holding paramedic certs. The balance are first responders.
We run first response EMS, with a private ambulance company providing ALS services and transport.
There are times that a rig may roll with a first responder or two, depending on staffing levels or if someone is working a swap or on overtime. They can assist the EMT's the same way that we assist the paramedics... within the scope of their training.
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Permalink Reply by John Perry on
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I have a few questions.
1.) Is the ambulance calling you for manpower for lifting?
2.) Do you have sop's or sog's on responding to medical calls?
3.) Do you work on a points system for each run?
If I was in your shoes, I would talk with the chief. In this talk, I would present him with a "New" sop or sog on medical calls.If I could be any futher help, please let me know, and let me know what happens. John
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Our Fire District covers 4 suburban/rural towns. We are a combination fd with both fire and EMS services. At all times we have our main station staffed with 2 fulltime persons, a minimum of 1 is a medic if not both. We also have paid part-time medics and emt-i and emt-b. We then also have about a 1/4 of our 70-100 volunteers are a minimum of 1st responder (state 40 hour program at tech school).
For the longest time all non-medical personnel could go to was fire and/or rescues (including mvas). Non-medical personnel only went to residential medical calls if man-power was requested. I personneling think that is the best way to go, but then again others did not. Mostly the newer ff wanting more action then a fire/rescue call because they are not as often.
I previously didn't have medical training and I never went all the medical only calls. I am now an emt so it is ok, but the others want to be everywhere everytime no matter what the call is. Some say they want to do 1st responder/emt classes but haven't taken one, although they have had the chance more then once. I think by letting them go, it no longer gives them incentive to go and take any medical courses.
Althouh to the one who say the fd had their own training done by the medics to teach what they can do to help is a good idea, I think eventually their should be further encouragement to take the actual courses.
I do agree that it should be written as an SOP. The group of us who are against non-medical personnel at medical only calls think it is not a good idea and the negatives outway the positives. I bunch of us had stated our concerns in meeting and to the chief, Chief decided to have the SOP re-written to allow non-medical personnel to attend every call but to stage back at medical only calls unless requested. Like I said, we said our peace and it didn't go the way we had hoped. But the chief made his decision and we dont go against the chief. So that is the way it goes now, but it is good to hear all different points of view on this subject.
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Permalink Reply by Adam Schmitt on
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My Dept has a paid Als ambulance working 24-7. Our Fire Dept. is voluteer. Our ff will go to medical call to assist the ambulance crews. Some are medically trained, some are not. but for medical calls the highest raking medical providers are in charge of that pt. ie the ambulace crew. If for some reason the ambulance is out on another call. And the "first resonders" respond, there WILL be a qualified personnel with that apperatus. There is nothing worse to happen to a Dept to have a truck show up on a scene and everyone stand around and do nothing to help the situation. Joe C Public doesnt care who shows up, but you came on a scene with personnel. and they expect you to do somthing . You can get your self in a world of hurt and dare I say it lawsuits if these people do something that will hurt a pt. Not being trained to do something, and these people do them, will put all the personnel on that scene at risk, not to mention pt care will be compromised. Be careful on what you allow untrained FF do. After all, arent we all in this together
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Permalink Reply by Timothy D. Stone Jr on
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In my dept. you have to have some one of 1st responder or above such as EMT B,I, or Paramedic to go to a medical call....so if your not 1st responder or EMT. you have to wait till the medics get there to go on scene...
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I have a question? What are you considering "medical calls"? Someone mentioned MVAs. Where I am, an MVA is a fire call, not a medical call.
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Permalink Reply by CW on
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Hey Whts goin On. Jst wanna say tht as long as U hav a truck tht responds 2 a call & if the manpower on tht truck r jst 1st reponders (or whtever) & r jst practicin wthin their scope/ training of practice and r nt negligent n wht they r doing than ur department shld b ok. But if U hav a BLS (EMT-I) or ALS (Paramedic) truck and Do Not hav the right staffing on tht truck & or if the personnel on tht truck r using medical protocol's tht they r not train for--- Better yet hav a Person tht is train 4 tht protocol, but is Not doing he/she is suppose to ----- Then some1 will be on the "redcarpet" answering the question of Wht da F.... Happen!!!
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