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Too many chiefs, not enough indians....
In Rhode Island there is no law that mandates an interior firefighter having a certain level of OFFICIAL training before becoming SBCA certified. In most cases, training is NON emergency situations, and after a few evolutions, they get a pat on the back, and a yep your good to go. In my own personal experience, I have also noticed that qualifications to become a fire officer are non existant. It seems to be more of who you know rather than what you know and do. I know individual department SOP's are supposed to set guidelines to be followed, but when the people calling the shots have little to no leadership skills, or firefighting training in a non department classroom how do you correct it? Whats your personal view?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Yank2441 on
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The bigges problem with volly departments are the elected officers. There are no good reasons to have elections so that the most congeneal person gets the position.
Officers should have an SOP to go by for the training they must have before they even apply for the job. Then they must have a minimum amount of experience (like 5 years on the job). The minimum training for the City of Columbia Fire Department is NFPA Fire Officer I, Leadership I,II,III, and all three MCTO classes. This is a good standard to start out with. I would also add the NIMS IC classes like IS-100, 200, ect....
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Permalink Reply by JP Moore on
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I'll bet the color of the cover on textbook for the class is stillfire engine red? There's your justification for the big expense. ;-)
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Permalink Reply by turk182 on
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yes this site can be used to benifit everyone and you said you are not here to attack anyone but for the second time in 14 hours you attack him again normally i do not get involved in inter company arguments but this sounds like something you need to discuu with him off line and in private not on here in this public forum.
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Permalink Reply by Engineco913 on
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As in any branch of the fire service, leadership is something that is not just a name you get, its a position you should earn. I don't see any validity in any of the acusatory remarks. I have read EVERY post by Kevin, and again, I have found him rather helpful on issues. I find it is a good thing for 1 because he Participates in the forums. Never once did he name a name. Quite frankly, it appears as though you are ASS U ME 'ing he meant your department. I don't care if your the current chief, past chief, director of EMA, or Jesus Christ, you have ZERO right to call him out in a public forum. Your right, we take each other for our word on certain issues. I assume from everything I have read by Kevin, he obviously has some great fire background and experience. However, again calling him out in a public place, 1 on 1 with his name was over the top. Not only do I reccomend finding the Fire Officer I book, I suggest you get some help on plain out respect.
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Permalink Reply by josh johnston on
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I do agree with you engine but Kevin has no record of any of his great wisdom and record of training. Once he validates some of his training and experience other than just what he says i will support him 100%. Within 3 months of becoming a probationary firefighter on our department he was heard in a public location stating that he was the fire chief. Kevin just needs to get his stories straight and decide which one he is going to tell because he forgets which embelishment he has told which person and at this point you cant believe anything he say, on here or anywhere else!!!
As i said before if he can validate any training i will change my tune. I will even say that i will come on this site and appologize to him so all of you can read it. There is a much deeper problem here than what you are reading on this site. And as stated in the first post i would not normally post on a public site. He chose this site to publicly discuss our department not me.
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Several of you have said that kevin did not bring any specific situations or refer specifically to our department i respond with the following post that was posted by Kevin himself. By the way Kevin, are you married or not? You told all of us fellow firefighters that you were married and introduced us to your wife but on your profile you say you are divorced.
I ran into that very situation when I moved here.It didn't help any that I'm 15 yrs older than our Chief and have about the same amount of yrs more experience.I kinda got a cold shoulder for a spell and everything I said fell on deaf ears.Things took a big turn on the first big fire I responded to with them.I was the only one that was in gear on arrival,had 2 lines pulled and was ready to knock on the door when the man that is now my entry partner showed up beside me looking kinda shocked.I earned their respect with the exception of a couple that are a lil bit short on ability and long on ego.Suggestions no longer fall on deaf ears.
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In South Carolina, you can take the entire Firefighter I & II, Haz Mat Ops, extrication, FLAG, and first aid in 7 weeks at our fire academy. Your breakfast and lunch are taken care of and they supply you with a fire station to sleep at Sunday night through Thursday night. This class is offered for under $800.00.
I hope this helps you out a little on the financial side of it. The $2000 does seem a little steep.
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Permalink Reply by Kevin King on
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I owe each and everyone of you an apology,If I had Been Extremly careful about how I worded some of the things that I've said maybe this mess would have not been blown so far out of proportion.As far as this man calling me a liar, believe what you will.The people that are the closest to me know that I am honest to a fault.This has gone far enough as far as I am concerned it ends here and now.I will still be online and will talk to anyone that wants to talk in closed forum but unless asked for my opinion I will not post again.Again sorry that you good folks had to be subjected to this kind of behavior it will not happen again on my account.
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Permalink Reply by Firefighter Nation WebChief on
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This will be the only warning that personal attacks are not tolerated here, nor are personal attacks back.
Discuss opinions freely, not attack each other.
The forum will be deleted if it continues.
Thanks
Dave
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At the risk of getting in trouble I was always taught you take a man or woman at their word and if you make a promise you keep it. I do not doubt the word of any of my firefighters unless someone brings me some evidence of it. If you are worried about his training why don't you call his old departments and ask them. I keep a file on all my firefighters and even those that move on i still keep them just in case they come back. I keep a copy of all their training certificates just incase some one ask for it.
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Permalink Reply by T.J. on
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My department just went over all this and was re-structured because of this at one time we had 10 Chiefs (captains, battalions, Cheit, assintant Chief, safty officr) and only 20 firefighters, wow was it interesting on the fire scene, its much better now:)
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Permalink Reply by Mike Schlags (Captain Busy) Retd on
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Once again, I find myself in a totally different world than most of the folks replying. I can only speak for Southern California but if you want to get on a fire engine, the first step is having proof that you attended a fire academy, graduated and got the certificate. You have to take a CPAT test to show that you pass the minimum physical agility standards and most of the kids hired these days seem to already have not just the fire academy, but a minimum AS Degree in Fire Science with the majority of the candidates having BA, BS, or MS degrees. Many of the candidates took the training for paramedic certification ( about 12K now ) and used that to get on a separate list for hiring. Many departments simply pool their resources now for hiring new recruits. Now I realize that for the most part, many fire departments in SoCal are full time paid departments but I wanted to stress that even if you were a volunteer firefighter, you would have to have met the same minimum standards prior to donning a SCBA, working as a Fire Officer or calling the shots. And for that reason, for anyone out there that wants to don a red or white helmet, you have to understand that you are in charge. Period. What this also means is that anything that goes wrong will rest fully on your shoulders.
As I have mentioned on FFN posts before, Federal Management Fire Team Incident Commanders over the past few years have gone through some significant leadership changes due to court rulings that found the IC responsible for the deaths of two volunteers with questionable training that on their own, drove to an area miles from the ICP and were burned over, killing both individuals. Event though the IC had no personal knowledge, nor anyone else on his command team did either, there was a ruling that made the IC accountable for everyone under his leadership.
I cannot comprehend how any fire department could tolerate someone being simply given a leadership position without first earning it. I did. And I learned from guys a lot older than me when I first started out. This is not a job that you can necessarily go to school and come into without first having been taught the reality of the job. The human side. This knowledge only comes after you have worked with your crews, understand their strenghts and their weaknesses, who works well with whom, and so on. This is not a game. This is the last of the honorable jobs left where when we work, it's working for an honest dollar and helping those in need at the same time and yes, I realize that not everyone gets paid for doing this but you get what I mean here, don't you?
The true test of a leader is to know when to do the right thing. If I was put into an officer position for example, just because I knew someone or I knew someone who knew someone else and some how, someone called a favor... you get the jist here... I would think that if you truly cared for the safety and welfare of the men and women that work in your jurisdiction, then you would bump yourself down to the appropriate level.
This job is a hands on job. You learn best by learning along side someone else and doing it together, step by step. In my fire station, we have only three personnel. One Firefighter who may or may not be a paramedic, one engineer / apparatus driver and one Captain. I have not had the chance to express my philosophy about how to run a station before, but for those out there that are interested, here's how I orientate my new guys.
First off, my big speech is basically only three words. Know, Your, Job... That's it, enough said.
Secondly, I tell the firefighter that if the engineer drops a wrench, I expect she or he to be there to catch said wrench before it hits the ground. Of course it's a metaphor but there's my philosophy that this is a hands on, learned job and the only way to learn is to do...
TCSS, Mike
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