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Firefighters as Unarmed Agents of Law Enforcement
I was at the National Fire Academy last week and Dr. Onieal pulled me aside to discuss something that he found troubling. Apparently there are those in government who believe that firefighters should be doing more to help combat crime and terrorism by reporting all criminal activity that we come across when we enter peoples homes and businesses.
Now I am not soft on crime - and I do not believe Dr. Onieal is either - but a formal policy of training fire and EMS personnel to identify and report criminal activity - concerns me. We go into peoples homes and businesses and for the most part are welcomed as helpers. We do not want people hesitating to call us for fear we may have them arrested. Nor do we want to be shot at or attacked (any more than we currently are) because someone sees us as the enemy. At the same time I am not suggesting that we openly tolerate criminal activity. But there is a fine line.
I am working on a article on this subject for Firehouse Magazine and I am looking for your input. Should firefighters be trained and required to report criminal activity?
Note: The US Supreme Court has said the firefighters may enter a building without a search warrant to extinguish a fire, under the exigent circumstances exception to the 4th Amendment. It is this "loophole" that certain folks want to exploit.
Now I am not soft on crime - and I do not believe Dr. Onieal is either - but a formal policy of training fire and EMS personnel to identify and report criminal activity - concerns me. We go into peoples homes and businesses and for the most part are welcomed as helpers. We do not want people hesitating to call us for fear we may have them arrested. Nor do we want to be shot at or attacked (any more than we currently are) because someone sees us as the enemy. At the same time I am not suggesting that we openly tolerate criminal activity. But there is a fine line.
I am working on a article on this subject for Firehouse Magazine and I am looking for your input. Should firefighters be trained and required to report criminal activity?
Note: The US Supreme Court has said the firefighters may enter a building without a search warrant to extinguish a fire, under the exigent circumstances exception to the 4th Amendment. It is this "loophole" that certain folks want to exploit.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Paul Schroader on
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I think the name "FIREfighter" says it best, we are not "CRIMEfighters." Here where I am on a local Volunteer dept. the local police/sherrif deputy on duty are always at the scene of any accident, and house fires as well. In that case they can carry out any legal duties. I think a change like this would make our job as firefighters much more difficult, because in general people regard firefighters as helping hands, and law enforcement officers as, well the enforcers. I think if they see us as law enforcement officers with helmets and hoses, they will be less cooperative, atleast if there is something they are hiding (which sadly there often is).
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Permalink Reply by Brad Dietlin on
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I agree, bad idea. This is why most fd's have gone to wearing the t-shirts while on duty instead of the uniform shirt with a badge. It's less intimidating. When most people see a badge they usually think police officer.
Just my thoughts
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Permalink Reply by Bill Brierton on
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I believe we are at least in our county obligated to report a potential crime such as potential child abuse. We have no formal training and I believe that criminal activity should be the responsibility of the police not the fire department. We try to remain neutral since we have to treat everybody equally. Adding the responsibility of combating crime is not and should not be a part of the fire service.
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Permalink Reply by Don Smith on
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I don't get this at all. It sounds like another excuse to stop drinking coffee. Most places I've been, there is plenty of time for the police to do some of this stuff without trying to get another agency to do it for them.
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Permalink Reply by Marc Hansen on
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Okay maybe i'm missing something here but reporting most of what we see is already part of the job(real or suspected child/elder abuse) and in most communities we are already "enforcers" unless no one in your community has ever been cited for violating fire codes(which is also how they condem buildings in a lot of areas). I believe that this discussion was brought about by DOJ looking at training FDNY to report potential terrorist types of things. I believe it would fall under safety for me to report the gentleman(or lady) that has 7000lbs of fertilizer in their basement in the middle of my business district that is miles away from anything larger than a vegetable garden. Maybe the way they should try this is to have a law that allows the police to read the volumes of reports that the fire service in general generates on our responses and inspections that we are already doing.
While they are at that what do they do about a police officer that is a vol. firefighter because I believe the cops have a duty to protect and to serve at all times much like a medic is still a medic even when he isnt in uniform.
We already do most of what the DOJ wants to do the only difference is we dont report it to the police we file it away in some building called admin(for the paid depts) or in a filing cabinet(for us vollies). Personally I dont have a problem with them knowing what we see, most of the time the are at the call before us anyway. If its someone with 43 heatlamps running off two extension cords and multitaps, then thats me taking care of something before it has the ability to put me in harms way(we normally spell that SAFETY).
As far as the public considering us heros that only applies to us when we die doing our duty, going to parades, or respond to some situation that they cannot handle themselves(in which case they dont know who else to call). Otherwise we are just the people that closed the road nad made them late for work or the reason that their taxes are so high.
I know I got long winded to say we already do all this just pass a law that allows us to turn records we already have to the police and operationally it doesnt change a thing that we do.
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Permalink Reply by Greenman on
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I think the real difference is that we are not used specifically for the purpose of performing searches at this time.
We report when we see soemthing suspicious, and there's nothing wrong with being knowledgable about what's out there (i.e. what bomb-making meterials look like), so we know it when we see it.
Where I think the thin blue line falls is at the point when FFs are tasked to perform a kind of "intel gathering mission" specifically for law enforcement, and not incidental to an actual EMS/Fire response.
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Permalink Reply by Curt Varone on
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Super input everyone.
Thank you. I think we all understand the need to report some types of criminal behavior - such as that which directly effects the lives and safety of others. Any maybe we are talking about a distinction without a real difference - but the idea that we would be given formal training and expected to find and report on criminal activity (any more that we ordinarily do in the normal course of our daily activities) concerns me... FOR ALL OF THE REASONS YOU HAVE INDICATED!!!!! Dr. Onieal mentioned that when he was a firefighter in Jersey City there were housing projects where people would drop loaded garbage cans off roofs when the firefighters would respond. It doesn't take much imagination to realize that such behavior would likely increase once such a formal program to observe and report crime was instituted.
Any additional perspectives on this controversial policy would be appreciated.
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Permalink Reply by Chris Davis on
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I'll call it what it is. BULLSHIT.
Yes we already report certain types of things as stated above.
But I for one dont want people to stop calling on the FD when they could be endangered
because some nutcake in D.C decides to makes us into the polices own little goon squad and having to report every damned things that happens.
MAJOR serious Situations, such as noticeable amounts of illegal substances, or out of place substances { i.e. the 7000 lbs of fertilizer in a city basement} are one thing. but every little nook and cranny? Come on Guys do WE really want to be known as an SS Squad?
The governement wants everyone to spy on everyone else for them
so they dont have to do thier jobs.
We do NOT live in a Fascist Nazi society. Let the police do thier jobs and we do ours.
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Permalink Reply by Art "ChiefReason" Goodrich on
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Wait a minute; not so fast.
Let me answer your question with a question:
How's that training program for our nation's truckers going? You know; the one that was suppose to train them in recognizing suspicious/terrorist behavior? Have we seen any recent graduates of this program?
Look; the government has been trying to find ways to screw up our squeaky clean image for decades. They are immediately distrustful of the notion that people TRUST us...with their LIVES! They despise the idea that firefighters are looked upon as heroes by little kids and adults alike. People GIVE money to firefighters. Government TAKES it.
I get the feeling that they want to "thin the herd", so they are going to send us into high crime areas without guns and bullet proof vests so we can "spot" illegal activity.
Who thought this up; Bernie Kerik? How's he doing nowadays?
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Permalink Reply by Brendan on
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I dont believe that this should be done for the simple fact that it is an imbreachment of privacy even if something is illegal. Arent we supposed to live and die by our silence to personal information we are not even sposed to mention what happened on a scene unless the conversation involves the people on scene plus the fact of it will make ppl scared to call for emergency services when they are most needed we are helpers to man not incriminators if we really wanted to be incriminators we would have joined a police department or somethin
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Permalink Reply by David Watts on
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I think we all should be cross trained. Now there are some people who should not do this, And you know who you are. For the most part, Firefighters,And EMS should be cross trained. You never know, It might lead into a career in Law Enforcement. Let me say this. If we see something that is not right in the home" We Tell ". What is the difference. A officer can not arrest unless he/she has probable cause. If we tell an officer after we leave the scene, Then we are out of luck to have anything done about it. There is not enough officers here in my area to respond to every call. The whole County is short on people. I am just ranting on about something I kinda know a little bit about. Law Enforcement can not enter your house unless he/she has a Warrent, But there is a thing called Exigent Circumstances, Which I am not sure how a Medical call would be Exigent Circumstances for an officer to come on the patients curtiliage , And arrest someone because we said they did something illegal. Anyway, I have more to say But the wife said Supper is done. I will try and get back on later. You all know what I am trying to say. YES,YES,YES,YES To cross training. And for the people who say we will losse the publics trust, "Well how about this" Do not do anything wrong and you will not have to worry about anything. If some one who is a criminal calls for help, And they realize that we are the PO-PO dressed up like Fireman and he /she tells us to leave the property, Well, We leave. If the patients dies because we were not able to treat them, SHIT HAPPENDS. THAT IS ONE LESS CRIMINAL THE TAX PAYERS WILL NOT HAVE TO PAY FOR. I hate to say it like that, But it is the truth. I am going to eat now. YEA YEA YEA, I SAID THAT A BOOK LENGTH AGO. i AM GONE NOW.
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When cops start carrying hi-rise kits and ladders, I'll consider carrying a gun and nightstick.
Until then, no friggin' way.
This is America; where firefighters capture the imagination of little kids and cops dream of being little kids again.
Somebody had to say it.
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