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When will the fire service learn to think about risk and loss potential
This discussion is also published in another section of this forum but I felt is was important enough to have wider input for firefighters and officers.
The fire service needs to stop risking lives for property that can be replaced.
Monday morning quarterbacks: Please carefully review the video at the following links. Make a note of your observations of safety issues that you see:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLl1XM6C--g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zm1WQbf8Xq0
Ask these questions at your next training session:
What were the risks to personnel and equipment?
What safety violations do you observe?
What actions would you have taken differently as a company officer and as the incident commander?
Lets start the list here in your replies.
Remember: The efforts being exerted by the firefighters to ventilate where certainly great and they probably thought that they were doing a good job.
Where were the incident commanders on this incident?
Where was the safety officer?
What was the company officer thinking?
Should these leaders ever be in charge of another incident until they have been retrained in the importance of safety for their personnel?
The fire service must compare what the risks to the lives of these firefighters were to the possible benefits of the actions they were taking. Firefighter safety must be the most important function for every company officer and every incident commander.
When will we learn???
Where are our command officers?
Where are our safety officers?
Where are our training officers?
Why are the scenes in this video not unusual?
Could they have been taken at your last incident?
What will every department learn from these videos?
Can these videos help saves the lives of other firefighters or are we doomed to continue depending upon our own dumb luck?
The fire service needs to stop risking lives for property that can be replaced.
Monday morning quarterbacks: Please carefully review the video at the following links. Make a note of your observations of safety issues that you see:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLl1XM6C--g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zm1WQbf8Xq0
Ask these questions at your next training session:
What were the risks to personnel and equipment?
What safety violations do you observe?
What actions would you have taken differently as a company officer and as the incident commander?
Lets start the list here in your replies.
Remember: The efforts being exerted by the firefighters to ventilate where certainly great and they probably thought that they were doing a good job.
Where were the incident commanders on this incident?
Where was the safety officer?
What was the company officer thinking?
Should these leaders ever be in charge of another incident until they have been retrained in the importance of safety for their personnel?
The fire service must compare what the risks to the lives of these firefighters were to the possible benefits of the actions they were taking. Firefighter safety must be the most important function for every company officer and every incident commander.
When will we learn???
Where are our command officers?
Where are our safety officers?
Where are our training officers?
Why are the scenes in this video not unusual?
Could they have been taken at your last incident?
What will every department learn from these videos?
Can these videos help saves the lives of other firefighters or are we doomed to continue depending upon our own dumb luck?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Ron Graner on
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RIGHT ON BROTHER MOOSE.
Now the same question remains. What can we as a fire service do to wake up those who never learn and change the conditions where our barvest keep getting killed?
My first book, Fire Chief lessons learned climbing the ladder has a ton of personal experiences where I did really stupid things starting over 45 years ago. I wrote about those really stupid things so that the next generation of ff would not have to learn by their own mistakes. I have been looking at a book printed by my old department and the line of duty deaths from the 1800's has many of the same causes. So again, how can we change this mind set in our profession especially on the east coast? The mind set is very different on the west coast and in the rest of the world but they stioll have LODD.
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Permalink Reply by will grasser on
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i do know even though i only have 10 years exp. in the fire service.that we as firefighter take risk's every day on all calls the term "good firefighter " to me is one that does his job as safely as he can but still gets the job done with acceptable risk.puting firefighters lifes at risk for no reason just to save a shell that will be torn down any how is no good. i do say go for the heart off the fire if it is worth the risk. one day no matter how safe we do our job some will die its a given. to lose lifes over nothing is the true failure in this job.
dept officers my give dumb oders but as a firefighter on scene you must stand up and do what is right even if it is disobaying a order from officer.you are in charge of your life.it may be he/she did not see something that you did take note of let it be known we all must work as a team.any firefighter or officer that lets any one of the team go to work at a scene with out the minium ppe is not part of team or a brother/sister of that person.manditory rule all proper ppe will be worn when on the scene of any call no matter what.brake it down to list the ppe to be worn at the incident fire,mva how ever you want that each incident has a set ppe to be worn.no devation from this rule period! all not in compliance with this will be removed from incident and action taken to fix probem.and diciplinary action will be taken for not following this manditory rule no questions asked.
as for he other stuff in video there is to much unknown to make a true case for right and wrong about the fire ground opperations.i will not make any statement with out all need info to make a true fact based statement.just to state something with out all facts will only be wrong any way you look at it.
"courage is not the abstance of fear but that there is somthing more important then fear"
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Permalink Reply by Moose on
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Well Sister, thats whats wrong with our situation...firefighters who think their better than the rest of us because of the amount of calls they do or the reputation their dept has. In my eyes there are no multiple departments...just one single one filled with firefighters of all types ALL doing the same job...TOGETHER. Im sorry the Boston guys have such a rotten attitude and think so poorly of their volunteer brothers who dont do as much as they might be doing. Its a sad situation, and its not part of the "Brotherhood" I grew up in.
Thanks for your comments.
Moose
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The thing your missing is that Im speaking about all firefighters everywhere...not just in Boston or any other large metropolitan department. We are still a brotherhood, right? We still try to look out for each other and make sure everyone goes home, right?
Another thing, Im tired of being referred to as "Some firefighter from upstate NY." I fight the same fire everyone else does, and would love to have the same respect I give everyone else.
Siren, Im not trying to argue, or piss anyone off, just trying to keep the brotherhood alive. Hope you have a great holliday season.
Be Safe All
Moose
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Permalink Reply by Art "ChiefReason" Goodrich on
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Moose:
As you know too well, we will be a "brotherhood" once again, just as soon as someone somewhere dies because they suffered a fatal heart attack while on duty, they fell through a roof because they didn't sound it out/didn't stay on the ladder, fell OFF the ladder, passed out from the smoke they inhaled because they weren't wearing SCBA when they vented the roof, then fell through the vent hole, was struck in their helmetless head with the pick end of the axe because they struck metal instead of wood or fell when they attempted to jump to the next roof, missed or slipped and fell to their death.
I could go on, but it might be construed as criticism.
And really? I don't care where anyone is from or what department they serve on. Stupid can be found on EVERY department in this great nation. NORTH/SOUTH/EAST/WEST; Stupid and Murphy will find you.
And then we will throw one helluva funeral. I can almost hear the bagpipes.
Art
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There have been some excellent observations discussed above RE; PPE, personnel positioning, lack of communications, the real job of ff, fear, safety, safety safety, etc, etc.
Now lets do the next part of the incident review and look at alternatives to the actions taken. Most importantly lets look at the potential long term effects of these operations on ff who where not even on scene as scene.
For firefighting and extinguishment, would Class A foam have knocked down this fire better and faster with less actual cost and risk to personnel and equipment while providing more protection to the rest of the city by keeping multiple alarm units available to respond to other incidents?
Would the use of the 1 ¾ line that is seen in the building on the 1 side on the top floor to hit the fire under the roof knocked down or reduced the fire in the hidden space?
It has been noted that there were several aerial ladders in service. Look closely at the pictures: Is the aerial on the 1-4 corner (front toward the left) positioned so that the beam is resting on the edge of the structure with no one on the ladder? Is extreme heat impinging on the beam of that ladder? Is the aerial between structures on the 2 side (right) being impinged upon by heat and flame? Was the aerial on 2 side overloaded with the number of people at the tip for the extension and elevation? Was there shock to the aerial caused by the whipping action of the attempted lateral move? What caused the whipping action on a modern aerial ladder? Was it equipment problem or operator error? (Did this same aerial not extend to the ground so that the personnel who jumped could have climbed down safely?)
Long term safety questions about these 2 aerial ladders: Have these units been inspected and tested for heat damage before being returned to service? Have they been weight load tested after the shock in movement and overloading of the tip? Has the hydraulic system been checked to see why there was a whipping action? Has the operator skill level been reviewed to see if the problem was operator error or mechanical problem? Until each of these steps have been taken what are the risks to ff at future incidents when using this equipment and operator? What is the cost of these tests and repairs?
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