Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Christopher J. Naum, SFPE on August 7, 2008 at 9:30am

Thanks for the reply and insights.
Great words to live by; "All I can say for new officers is to follow you sop/sog's so you don't find yourself in court".

Permalink Reply by Lt.leatherhead on August 10, 2008 at 6:00pm

The way I look at things I should be willing to do anything I'm willing to have my firefighters do. This "Do as I say, not as I do" should have far passed along with the lack of SCBA and full PPE but it is still a problem with many fire departments. I have no problems with old firefighting values and traditions but breathing smoke and dying young shouldn't be traditions we keep. My men should be able to look up to me as an officer that not only looks out for the well being of his firefighters but as well as his own. We need to be able to replace this old saying with a new one, do as I say, and as I do.

Permalink Reply by Gregory A. Long on August 11, 2008 at 10:47pm

You know, I going to tell on myself here. I tell myself that it was the right thing to do. But it did not set a proper example for young and upcoming officers under my charge.
We were on scene of a large fire, a very large fire. Our command post was set up some distance from the fire ground and a full 360 was just not available due to the size of the complex. I just could not stay in the command post and send firefighters into areas that I personally did not see firsthand. Now, before you jump on the keyboard, understand that I did not go running around half-baked giving orders to front line crews and undermine my operations Chief.
I ensured that the deputy IC was informed, and all staffing levels were in place. I checked in with accountability, received an escort, and went to the front lines to see where I was ordering firefighters to enter. I just needed to fully grasp what I was sending my men into.
I know that I should have trusted my officers and operations chief to make the correct decisions, and I did not go with the intent of “checking up on them”. But I just had to see for myself what we were facing.
Has anyone just felt the NEED to fully grasp what we were asking our men to do, and felt the burning inside to go to the frontline and see for yourself what you were facing?
I talked with the sector chief and the operations chief and expressed what I was feeling, communicating that this was not a trust issue. They both stated that they understood, and I did not make any corrections or suggestions on their operations. They were doing a superb job and performing their duties with the utmost efficiency. Not one injury was reported, and our mission was accomplished.
However, I sometimes wonder if any of the younger firefighters saw me, and that my presence may have cast a doubt that their sector chief needed a visit from the IC.
Did I do an injustice to my men by making that visit?
Did I undermine my operations and sector chiefs by the visit?
This still causes sleepless nights.

Permalink Reply by ECB on August 30, 2008 at 9:38pm

I don't think you did. I think that you were fulfilling your obligation as the IC. You needed to see the big picture first hand. The Deputy was fully aware, you were in radio contact, and I would assume you did not stay any longer than was necessary to determine what it was you were dealing with. One of the things that we are taught is to do the "360" when we arrive. You didn't have that opportunity initially. Did your tour make your decision making process easier? As for undermining anyone, did you micromanage while at the front line? Did you step in and over ride them? If you are concerned, perhaps as part of the incident critique, you can state that you made a visit to the front line to determine the scope of the problem, and that you would like to congratulate everyone on the job well done you observed.

Permalink Reply by Cody Collopy on September 1, 2008 at 12:39pm

I couldn't agree more, Eric.

I would also like to add that the responsibility of setting the right example doesn't just fall on the shoulders of the Chief and his officers. We should impress upon our more experienced firefighters, that the new firefighters are watching them as well, and that their actions will influence others as well.

Permalink Reply by Gregory A. Long on September 1, 2008 at 8:39pm

Eric,
I specifically made it a point not to say anything except positive comments upon observing their operations. I had it in my mind that if I noticed anything, as long as it didn’t endanger lives, I would talk privately to that ops chief at the debriefing conducted at the end of the shift. That was not necessary on any visits.
I visited the operations, saw what I was asking my men to go into, viewed the overall scene, and then moved on. Did it make the overall process easier? I’m not sure. There is on the one hand, not knowing firsthand, but relying only on given information from the sector chief. Problem is that while you can trust that chief with your life, sometimes things do go wrong. If I did not view firsthand, there was no way to KNOW in my gut what I was asking him or his team to do. It was very different that a primary search of a structure. Not that I have anything but respect and admiration for the sector chef, but if something did happen, my NOT being involved would be doing him an injustice, in my opinion.
This was primarily a search and rescue, NOT a recovery as some a-holes likes to call it. The fire grounds had been controlled, so while being expeditious, I did not want carelessness to become a factor. You know, pushing for progress that breeds mishaps.
I felt I needed the visits to be able to talk with media, VIPs, plant personnel, and others to explain exactly what was going on. But really, I needed it for me. Not just to sit in an office at a corner of the plant, waiting for word to come down, pop up for media, and then back to your stool. Hell, I wanted to be in there digging! I just didn’t want my selfishness to be misconstrued as not having confidence in the command structure, or the chiefs that were secondary command units.

Permalink Reply by Jenny Holderby on October 28, 2008 at 12:24am

As the IC you need to know what is going on. I can't assess the situation from a distance @ times. I'm pretty sure that "the book" Incident Command has a paragraph or two about the IC being informed. It sounds to me like you did the right thing. You left your deputy IC in charge while you were on a fact finding mission. Your sector chiefs were probably happy to see that you were taking an active role in the event. They may have appreciated that you wanted to find out if everything was going well or if you needed to adjust your IAP. Sometimes communications aren't completely clear, talking to your sector chiefs face to face isn't a bad thing @ all. They may say something to you there that they wouldn't necessarily say on the radio.

As the Safety Officer I am ALL over the fire scene. I walk the perimeter & check & re-check things that might become an issue & keep the IC informed. I have a good number of years of experience. I also know that the IC or the Chief of Ops might be too busy or too close to notice a block wall "heaving" or "waving" which is a sure sign of collapse. But that is one of the things I keep check on. And I inform them QUICKLY. That isn't interfering with their job, its helping them. The IC or Ops Chief might not see that there is heavier smoke coming from an area. They might not realize that an exposure is feeling the heat or a number of other things going on that they can't see.

Did any of your subordinates complain? Did you hear any rumblings after the fact? I'm sure if there were any problems you would have heard it, if not @ the demobilization then soon after.

Permalink Reply by Gregory A. Long on October 28, 2008 at 3:43pm

Jenny,
I received no complaints from anyone. But this was my first extra large-scale incident. And I pray that there will never be another for anyone to go through. We had 23 fire departments from two states, nine counties, and a total of 223 firefighters for this two week operation. Add 91 medical personnel, over 100 law enforcement, and countless other agencies that assisted. Over five hundred total when everything is counted. And all of the alphabet soup was on hand as well.
We had an after-action debrief at which I knew several things could be done better, but no one mentioned my visits. I strongly feel that by going to the front lines and saying encouraging things to the fire fighters would be a good thing that showed two things: 1. how much I care about them and what they were doing, and 2. That I took a proactive approach to ensuring everything that was needed was obtained, and that they had my full support in what they were doing.
I could not ever expect to find any better command staff that what was provided to me during this event. These men and women all went above and beyond what anyone could have asked of them.
I did receive some feedback later from some of them that I would never catch THEIR chief making a visit to ensure they were being taken care of. I took that as a compliment from such dedicated professionals. But also, it just made me bring this up that if no one else would do it, did I act “un chief like” in doing so. I truly in my heart had the intentions of showing support and encouragement.

Permalink Reply by Jenny Holderby on October 28, 2008 at 3:58pm

Wow!! It sounds like you expanded the ICS model to its fullest and used it pretty well. That is a lot of people for a long period of time. Thankfully I have never been envolved with anything of that magnitude. We've had some pretty good size wildland fires, a couple of tire fires that were of some magnitude & involved several departments & equipment from all over the county & other states but the "onscene" time wasn't nearly that intense. The most tragic was providing mutual aid on a fireworks store fire where 9 people died. We prepare for these things & pray they never happen.

Hind sight is alwasy 20/20. You often realize better ways of making things happen much later but would it really have had that much greater effect @ the time? But you keep those things in mind if you ever happen to be in that situation again.

I'm almost willing to bet that if the situation arises again that you will use the things you learned the first time & that you will probably be making some up close visits again if you feel that is what you need to do.

Permalink Reply by Gregory A. Long on October 28, 2008 at 10:18pm

I guess that it is just breed into me. As a rookie, some time back in "88, I went into a trailer fire without backup. STUPID!!! But, young, dumb and full of ....... well anyway, the roof caved in and my first Chief ended up pulling me out. The words of wisdom I received stayed with me to this day. So did the butt chewing.
Yes, can the scene be run better now after that learning experence. YES! Would we all like to have a practice run before the actual event? Sure.
I will always be yearning to be on the front lines with the teams. But with the role I have now, I need to pull back the reins to ensure that I can do the best job possible for those front line fighters. They deserve that.
My main concern was at the time, did the actual visits cause concern? If it such a good thing, why don't more of us in the leadership role do it? I've searched, but can't find a suitable answer to that one.