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Comment by IRON JAKES on February 17, 2010 at 9:20pm

Granted, we can all critique this video with what could have and should have been done. There are some training topics on which this department (or multiple companies) can train. But, let's be thankful that a brother didn't actually die in order for us to learn from this video. Let's hope the next time gets better so lives are at risk unnecessarily.

Comment by Don Moorhead on February 17, 2010 at 8:15pm

What the F is the camera guy doing ? he let a brother fall down a ladder, he should be dismissed from his position. This is why training for a mayday is effective and needed. This is a terrible video, also whats up with all of the lawn breathers standing in the yard ! go in and get it, wow terrible

Comment by Leonard Friedlander on February 17, 2010 at 7:24pm

I NOTICED A COUPLE OF FIREFIGHTERS MADE COMMENTS THAT A LADDER TO THE SECOND FLOOR SHOULD HAVE ALREADY BEEN IN PLACE AS A SECONDARY MEANS OF EGRESS. I TOTALLY AGREE .......

Comment by Leonard Friedlander on February 17, 2010 at 7:04pm

iN ADDITION IF THERE IS AN INSIDE OPERATION GOING ON TO FIGHT THE FIRE DO NOT SHOOT WATER IN THROUGH WINDOWS HITTING THE INSIDE FIREFIGHTERS WITH WATER AND PUSHING SMOKE BACK INTO THE BUILDING AT THE INSIDE FIREFIGHTING TEAM . GET THE MANUALS FROM NEW YORK CITY FIRE DEPARTMENT ON FIREFIGHTING PROCEDURES AND TACTICS AND READ THEM AND STUDY . GOOD LUCK AND GOD BLESS

Comment by FETC on February 17, 2010 at 6:59pm

Helmet cameras are banned by my department. They are not in my opinion a training tool when used at an uncontrolled incident, more often than not, they are documenting evidence that could be used against the organization. For example, if this brother had died, I am sure a lawyer would love to see the lack of secondary means of egress provided to this stricken brother. Something that I think everyone will agree, is a firefighter 1 or basic tactic not afforded to him.

I am not going to go on a long post about all the things wrong here. BUT Andrew Fredericks said it best, if we put the fire out right the first time, assign all the personnel to all the key postions, we shouldn't need to jump out of windows.

I would be embarassed if this was my video. Glad to hear the falling brother, made out OK.

Comment by Leonard Friedlander on February 17, 2010 at 6:59pm

I AM A RETIED NEW YORK CITY FIRE FIGHTER WITH EXTENSIVE EXPERIENCE IN MANY DIFFERENT STRUCTURAL FIRES INCLUDING SINGLE DWELLING HOME FIRES AS SHOWN IN THIS VIDEO AND I HAVE A NUMBER OF COMMENTS ABOUT WHAT I WITNESSED IN THIS VIDEO THAT I FEEL WERE WRONG. FIRST OF ALL IT LOOKS LIKE MOST , OR ALL OF THE FIREFIGHTING PROCEDURES WERE AN OUTSIDE OPERATION WHICH WILL NEVER SAVE THE HOUSE IN AN EFFICIENT EFFECTIVE WAY . THESE OUTSIDE OPERATIONS ARE USUALLY USELESS AND ONLY USED IN NEW YORK CITY UNDER THE MOST SEVERE AND DANGEROUS OF CONDITIONS, AND THIS WAS CERTAINLY NOT THE MOST SEVERE , OR DANGEROUS OF CONDITIONS . GET YOUR MASKS ON AND GET INTO THE STRUCTURE AND PUT THE WATER ON THE FIRE . HAVE THE TRUCK VENT AS SOON AS WATER IS ON THE FIRE , BUT NOT UNTIL WATER IS ON THE FIRE AND THE STRUCTURE IS SAVED TO THE MAXIMUM , AND SO ARE LIVES OF CIVILIANS SAVED TO THE MAXIMUM. IN ADDITION I SAW A FIREMAN USING AN FT2 FOG TIP , IN NEW YORK WE ONLY USE AN FT2 FOG TIP TO VENT AFTER A FIRE . USE A SOLID STREAM INSTEAD PUTTING MAXIMUM WATER ON THE FIRE WHICH A FOG TIP CAN NOT . IN ADDITION IN A BAIL OUT CALLING FOR A LADDER STRADDLE THE WINDOW WHILE WAITING FOR LADDER AND GO DOWN LEGS FIRST NOT HEAD FIRST . GENTLEMEN I AM SORRY TO HAVE TO INSULT YOU , OR HURT YOUR FEELINGS IN ANYWAY , BUT THIS VIDEO WAS A SAD CASE OF FIREFIGHTING AT BEST.....

Comment by Foley&son on February 17, 2010 at 4:37pm

.i wanted to see the ff hook his arm on the ladder. but he didnt i hope he is ok. god bless be safe. l

Comment by Peter Casello on February 17, 2010 at 2:36pm

check out 6:06 you can see command go up the ladder to look into the window?

Comment by Bill Rowe on February 17, 2010 at 1:49pm

The balance of my post;

Put Out the Fire; I can't know where crews were in the building and I don't know if there were victims to consider so this can't be considered as a critique of their actions but if you watch the fire build in the Bravo Charlie corner (words not letters) on the first floor it should make you ask a few questions. Is there an interior crew attacking this fire? Have they abandoned the attack to respond to the Mayday? Can an exterior line be used from this location without pushing fire, heat and steam onto interior crews? Will an exterior attack push fire and cut off egress routes?
Seeing that fire development illustrates one aspect of managing the Mayday, and that is that fire fighting still has to continue whether it is the crew in place continuing with their assignment or new crews replacing an interior crew that can respond effectively to the Mayday. Continuing the fight will protect egress routes and the teams responding to the Mayday and if they happen to put the fire out it will make everyone's job easier.

I'm sure that each of you will be able to add to this list of Lessons Learned, so post your observations and thoughts and pass this email around so that we can learn as much as possible from Dover's successful experience.

Best,
Bill

Comment by Bill Rowe on February 17, 2010 at 1:47pm

I caught this video today when there were two posts and during the time I took to write up some notes and send them on to my company’s firefighters the posts have gone to two pages.
Let’s all try to be civil and learn something from what we see here.

My email to my FF’s is below;

The video shows the confusion and mayhem that would occur in 95% of the companies across the nation when this situation unfolds and despite my pride in the level of training and professionalism that we have here in my fire company I am certain that we too would come close to this level of reaction. I say this because it is too easy to watch this and criticize their actions without stepping back to realistically consider how we would react as well. Initially my thinking took the cheap shot and then I thought about the last time we practiced bailouts and Mayday procedures. The reality is we don't get the opportunity to practice or use this stuff to make it second nature so that when it happens for real some level of panic and confusion will creep in. One of the best things we can do is to review real situations and come away with a list of lessons learned and a greater awareness of what we need to do to make it happen quickly and safely when a Mayday falls in our lap.

ACCOUNTABILITY & COMMAND AWARENESS
As he comes out of the window you can hear that they don't know how many are in the building.
If we can maintain crew integrity and operate as a unit, Safety and Command should be able to quickly account for the who what and where of the rest of the crew. Part of that is dependent on knowing what crew that the FF laying on the ground came from, if his SCBA is marked E-5 we will know immediately what crew is in trouble. If we have only his name then Accountability has to search through tags until they find which group he is with.

GATHERING INTELLIGENCE
When he hits the ground about ten guys jump on him yell at each other and drag him away.
Two things to consider here; Medical and Tactical Information.
Medical; Unless the building is falling on him, assess your patient and check for injuries. He just fell headfirst out a second floor window, chances are pretty good he could have a spinal injury and rather than completing he job of paralyzing him we should stabilize and give him a fighting chance.
Tactical Information; Just like the first question for the Ice Rescue victim we should be quietly asking the who, what and where. If he is conscious we should find out if he was with his crew, where they were when he last saw them and if he knows where they are or where they were going. Can he tell you about the conditions, access or other egress paths?

GENERAL NOTES
Assist the FF during the bailout; Get somebody up the ladder to help him rotate to come down feet first after he clears the window or hold onto him and guide him down headfirst.
Throw more ladders; Two things I've heard over the years, "When in doubt, throw ladders" and "Keep throwing ladders til there ain't no more"
You can hear the bailout start at about 3:12 into the video, at 4:02 he gets his hands on the tip of the ladder. If there had been a ladder in the window he could have been out 50 seconds sooner. Think about the videos that we saw last week with Chief 35 and consider what 30 to 50 seconds sooner could mean.
Communication; When they are trying to get that ladder and move it to the window it takes about 15 seconds to get the FF who is working on the ladder to move off it. Listen to how muffled the voices are in SCBA and consider the noise level around the FF on the ladder they are trying direct. Having a sector officer who can yell without a mask on his face or a mask mounted communications system that allows clear communication would be a huge help.
Put Out the Fire; I can't know where crews were in the building and I don't know if there were victims to consider so this can't be considered as a critique of their actions but if you watch the fire build in the Bravo Charlie corner (w

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