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Comment by Ben Waller on May 9, 2009 at 2:28pm

Truck-mounted winches are made for pulling a 4WD vehicle out of a mudhole or for stabilizing unstable vehicles or objects. They are NOT designed to pull loads containing live patients. There are several reasons that pulling a patient with a winch is a bad idea. First, the winch doesn't have the infinite control needed to apply gentle pulls to the load. Winch power has two settings... ON and OFF. There is no fine control in between. Manual rope systems using mechanical advantage have that infinite control...if you need to pull gently over an obstacle without jerking or starting and stopping, you can do it. You can't do that with a winch.

Remember, when you're moving a patient, you need a system that moves the patient with due regard for his injuries. Vehicle winches don't and can't do that. Rope systems are specifically designed for this function.

Most truck-mounted winches typically don't have cable brakes, so if there's a motor, switch, or solenoid failure, the cable may completely unspool. If you add a belay, that helps keep the load from sliding back down to the bottom, but then you have a mixed system of cables and ropes, which tend to be a bad combination, because the metal winch cable can abrade and seriously damage the rope.

It's possible to pre-rig a mechanical advantage rope system that can be deployed just as fast as a winch cable and much more safely.

Helicopter winches and the specialized anti-spin cable they use are a different breed than truck-mounted winches. They're specifically designed for rescue work, they haul lighter loads than a low-angle system does, they don't use redundent belays, and if necessary, the crew chief will cut the cable and drop the patient and the PJ in order to save the aircraft. We don't do that with rope rescue systems.

Comment by Trainer on May 9, 2009 at 11:37am

Ok Paul, I would still in the right situation use my winch, and would never every pull with the truck, that’s just plain stupid, but I would use the truck as an anchor. Winches are used every day, what about helicopters, why don’t they use ropes?? I don’t want to get in a pissin match, I trust your opinion, but the winch is just another tool in the box and needs to be used with some common sense by trained people. I also understand the dangers, for instance a rope you can tell if the pull changes, but I can tell the same on a winch. I guess it boils down to the right place at the right time.

Comment by Paul Montpetit on May 9, 2009 at 9:02am

May I suggest that before you get into the "methods" suggested that you research the Basic Technical Rescue Manual and/or the High Angle Rescue Book...? By looking at some of the comments here I can see that they have either checked it out or attended the course....I know I have....and still the use of a vehicle or a winch is a big No...No....Doing that someone will get hurt or killed...doesn't look good...fall injured him...rescuers killed him...or having rescuers as now victims....CMI has a good reference manual to keep handy...or OFPC at the State level has a book...Yes, it takes some time but like anything with practice it takes less...and you have the benefit of no-one getting hurt or killed....Stay safe.....Paul

Comment by Trainer on May 9, 2009 at 7:11am

No I am not a rescue specialist, but I do have people who are, and another no to just dragging a victim up a hill, I would hope to get a little more credit than that, but was merely referring to a “helper pull” up a steep grade. Now I’m scratching my head and wondering why you think there is more control with a rope setup than a winch, ok I forgot to add the belay for a backup. With this thing called a controller, with the touch of a button I stop or go, 15000lb winch means I meet the 9000lb requirement, so what’s the problem. Another issue would be time….by the time you get the rope setup; I got the victim up the hill.

Comment by Ben Waller on May 8, 2009 at 2:16pm

One other thing - solid-bottom stokes baskets (not the wire mesh ones) and similar litters (rescue SKEDs) are designed to drag along the ground. These litter types are designed to be used as sleds in low-angle slope rescues.

However, a winch shouldn't be used, because you don't have the control you need for a life safety load. Wire stokes should never be dragged, because you'll damage the litter and probably hurt the patient.

Comment by Ben Waller on May 8, 2009 at 2:13pm

What you describe is a "Counterblanced 1:1" rope system.
We just re-wrote the low angle rescue program for our state fire academy.
The re-write deleted the "how to" for this system and added a reference that we don't use it any more due to several dangers.

There isn't a lot of control, especially if the counterbalance team is extra-large, extra excited, or both.

If the counter balance rope end is longer than the stokes basket end, the counterbalance team will slam full-force into whatever is at the bottom of the slope before the stokes reaches the top.

If the counterbalance team is holding the rope by hand, they can lose their grip, lose control of the load, and the patient and litter attendant end up with a serious fall. This can also shock-load the system which means the rope gets retired and trashed instead of inspected for possible re-use.

If there is a vertical drop at the bottom of the slope, the counterbalance team can fall off of the vertical drop before the patient is at the top.

Take a basic low-angle class and use a mechanical advantage/pulley system for low angle rescues. They're safer and more controlled, they're smoother for the patient, and they use less people. Most importantly, they keep overly excited, untrained rescuers out of the rescue.

Comment by FETC on May 8, 2009 at 10:47am

Jake,

What you suggested and tried is called a low angle basic rescue, in which you carry a stokes with a team above using a hauling system to assit with the extrication.

Dragging the stokes on the ground and the use of the a winch is as Paul said No/No. It takes manpower, good communication, and training. Basic and Advanced Rope Rescue is needed by all.

Comment by Paul Montpetit on May 8, 2009 at 7:40am

as a second thought...ALL of the equipment used MUST be life rated...the ropes, the carabiners and all the hardware.....Every system must have redundancy (back-up) in case of failure....there really is a lot to it....it isn't overly difficult but worth the training.....Paul (again)

Comment by Paul Montpetit on May 8, 2009 at 7:32am

NO...NO....NO!!!!...You can use mechanical advantage such as a series of pulleys but NEVER EVER can you use a vehicle or a winch to pull up a patient or a rescue team....If someone or something gets hung up you will pull them apart before you realize there is a problem....and before you start doing technical rescue you might want to take the training....its worth the effort...OSHA and NFPA both have guidelines in this area....Stay safe.....Paul

Comment by Trainer on May 8, 2009 at 7:03am

Well I’m not sure this applies but we specked on our new truck 4 attachments points, all sides, where we can pin-in a winch for just this purpose, we’ve had this problem before.