s started by this particular comment on your part, and I quote, "The one thing you west coasters will NEVER understand is the TRADITION that is very strong on the east coast." It kind of makes me want to ask you if you understand our traditions? Let me know if I missed anything. I'm pretty sure that your job is not a lot different than any firefighters on the West coast.
• Like yourself, I tend to take the best from everyone, regardless of geographical locations. And some of the best and brightest minds I have met in the fire service are company officers and firefighters that are East coast folks that blow me away with their level of competence.
• This mindset also applies to LAFD once upon a time, and I was among them, fighting fires sans complete PPE. We all did stupid things back in the day. My comments were made not to lend credibility but to only exemplify traditions that I have heard of through my association of firefighters at the National Fire Academy and other national programs that I have both attended as a student or as an instructor. Again, I found it confrontational on your part to make a statement that there was not an understanding of tradition.
• More and more people equals encroachment on places that didn't use to have residences. It's a personal choice, no different than people who live in New Orleans. They know it's going to flood but they still live there. I think it's nuts to live in a highrise but hey, welcome to our free society where you can live anywhere you want. We just have to pick up the pieces and make it as safe as possible. And as a result to this impact, things like the ICS system and wildland / urban interface firefighting tactics were and continue to be invented.
• You are dead wrong about the inception of the ICS system. It was started and invented where I live, Santa Barbara, CA. I will attach the powerpoint presentation that outlines the evolution of ICS. Needless to say, way before NIMS was even around, we were using the ICS system and slowly making it better through the FireScope task force.
"As a result, the Incident Command System (ICS) was collaboratively developed (actually in Santa Barbara County) to provide a consistent, integrated framework for the management of large, multi-agency emergencies."
• There is no salient argument as to why tankers are airplanes... When the changes were made, I too had to re-think how I classify and name things. When I wrote the California hazmat technician and specialist programs, one of the modules included tank trucks used for hauling hazardous materials. No where in the program included the use of tenders. We have no disagreement here Don.
•While I spent my career working in Santa Barbara, one of your assumptions about what we are familiar with included ag rescue and what I would call a flat lander response cadre. I have cows in my backyard for gods sake. How much more God Country can you get?
Bottom line here Don is that for the most part, I agree with everything you have written but may have not done the best of jobs communicating it. Hopefully, we can do a better job. The point of replying to these forum posts is to share information with others. I look forward to continuing to do so with you in the future. You have a strong background in the trade and certainly aren't shy about expressing your opinion. Exceptional traits for a firefighter.
Fraternally,
Mike
…
opular resort town in the San Gabriel Mountains.
Heavy fire races over a ridge top as a fire engine assigned to structure protection makes its way along Lone Pine Canyon road in the San Gabriel mountains around 75 miles east of downtown Los Angeles, early Sunday, Oct. 4, 2009. A wind fanned wildfire that charred 3,500 acres of the San Gabriel Mountains continued to rage Sunday as firefighters worked to prevent flames from advancing toward a mountain resort community. (AP Photo/Mike Meadows)
A firefighter uses a hose to spray water on a wildfire in Wrightwood, Calif., on Sunday, Oct. 4, 2009. (AP Photo/Francis Specker)
Michael Tucker of the U.S. Forest Service surveys a wildfire as a helicopter flies around in the background in Wrightwood, Calif., on Sunday, Oct. 4, 2009.(AP Photo/Francis Specker)
The temperature at Wrightwood, at an elevation of about 6,000 feet, was expected to drop below 40 degrees.
Fire crews had spent the previous day cutting fire lines while battling erratic winds, which at times kept air tankers and helicopters grounded.
Officials warned the so-called Sheep fire, which had burned at least 7,500 acres, or nearly 12 square miles, and was 20 percent contained, still had potential to flare up and the town remained under mandatory evacuation orders.
Of most concern were the winds, which at times gusted up to 50 mph, then dropped to zero.
"It's hard to get a handle on it," Forest Service spokeswoman Barbara Duruisseau said. "The wind could be blowing one way one minute and another way the next."
The fire had destroyed three homes in remote canyons but firefighters had kept it from encroaching into Wrightwood. Between 4,000 to 6,000 residents were ordered to evacuate.
Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger declared a state of emergency for San Bernardino County, freeing up state resources to battle the fire.
The cause of the blaze was under investigation. It broke out Saturday near Lytle Creek, a small community surrounded by San Bernardino National Forest. Fueled by thick timber and brush, the fire pushed over hills and canyons by fast-moving winds.
Evacuation centers were set up at a high school in nearby Rialto and at the Victorville Fairgrounds.
In Arizona, strong winds kept some residents of the scenic northern Arizona city of Williams from returning to their homes Sunday as crews battled a prescribed burn that grew out of control and threatened part of the community known as the "Gateway to the Grand Canyon."
Punky Moore, a Kaibab National Forest spokeswoman, said the Twin Fire scorched about 1,000 acres, or more than 1 1/2 square miles. It was burning forest undergrowth and ponderosa pines on Bill Williams Mountain.
"We had a little bit of cloud cover and that did help moderate fire activity, but we still had the winds," she said. "That's a concern. We just don't want any fire outside of the lines."
The forecast called for wind gusts as high as 26 mph Monday.
Copyright 2009 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.…
.. (initial attack)
Do you have any idea how bizarre it was in concept alone knowing that you are being responded to a fire at such a unique and secret place. You have heard the stories but to actually be there? This should be interesting...
You can see the fire building up a head as we responded.
Yup... there's some work to get done... but where is the ranch? Is it threatened?
and the gates were open and ready... not a good sign...
This must be the place... Neverland...
You can see the fire approaching the ranch, but what was being threatened?
Mental Note: Good water supply... :D
There were many very valuable works of art all over the ranch. This is the main house.
Mental Note: Shake roofs... damn... also make note that what you are looking at is one of the coolest rides I have ever seen. You strap yourself into a F-16 cockpit that is built to fly 360˚, which means you fly upside down... kids love it, I hated it... This thing can burn in hell as far as I'm concerned...
There's some good defensible space, but it was weird seeing an empty theme park.
One of my favorite rides... the bumper cars...
By the time we arrived an ICP (incident Command Post) was set up and working.
This gives a pretty good perspective of how close the fire came to the ranch. You also might note the lack of actual firefighting photos... Needless to say, we were busy, so these pix are kind of before then after the fact. I'm sure you understand.
However, I must admit that I was very tempted to embellish here... but I didn't...
Helicopters were used to hit the head of the fire while dozers and hand crews attacked the flanks of the fire. Engine companies supported handcrews with handlines and water.
Rest In Peace Michael
Prior FFN post Re: Neverland FD
…
d am basically calling bullshit on anyone here who advocates that being the least bit fat is acceptable. The answer is no.
This is a very serious issue in the fire service that deserves taking the gloves off and telling it like it is. I am just recently 56 years old and found out that I have serious coronary artery disease, something that was only spotted through a recent full body scan.
Judging a book by its cover... What a concept and again, don't be fooled here. No one has brought up genetics. We are all different, so you can't compare a story about someone being a huge or small person and how good you feel and do the job. It's irrelevant and very subjective. Some guys no matter what shape they are in, and regardless whether they are big or small, are energizer bunnies... they just keep on moving on. The problem here is that no one really knows how long your batteries are going to really last, so you do things like stay in shape to increase your odds toward longevity.
You also have to compare the types of calls. If your a fat guy, your going to get your butt kicked on a wildland fire. Structure fires are usually short in duration compared to a full on initial attack wildfire. What you might be able to get away with is dependent upon how much physical work you actually do. Not everyone gets to stay at the engine, pumping or shuttling water.
If I sound like a weight nazi, please allow me to explain. I started my career out in 1973 as a paramedic. I even taught paramedic school and majored in bio-chem. I have a pretty good clue, maybe not as well versed as Paul who I believe is a RN or Ben who has yet to be wrong about anything. As a Hazmat Fire Captain, I've been getting intensive physical exams since our team was first started in 1984. These physicals include blood panels, and in my case indicated too many triglycerides but the cholesterol ran about 165, which is considered not really high, right? (help me here Paul...). I never looked at myself as being a cardiac risk and no else did for that matter. I don't smoke and rarely drink. Still, for years, my bloodwork never indicated cardiac issues or even the potential.
Having the radiologist tell me to immediately seek counsel from a cardiologist isn't something I was planning on hearing... I was expecting cancer from exposure or lung problems, but nope... cardiac. They called what I had a widow maker. This is the left descending coronary artery that is plugged up enough to cause sudden death should a piece of plaque become dislodged. "Poof"... and I'm history.
Stress translates to increased cardiac risk factors, which we get a lot of with this profession, especially when you are sound asleep and the alarms go off. You go from zero to 60 in seconds... This stress can have something to do with cardiac plaque development. Are you a ticking time bomb? Have you ever had any testing to see if your heart and carotid arteries are happy and clean?
I ended up making the appointment with the cardiologist and spent the day undergoing several tests. After all the testing, including blood work, I met with the doctor. He told me that the number one risk for cardiac insult revolves around both your level of cardiac fitness and percentage of body fat. He strongly recommended my losing additional weight if I wanted to live. To date now, I have lost almost 30 pounds, with more to go. I'm not to keen on becoming a FFN memory quite yet. I was also put on medication that stabilizes the cardiac plaque and slowly dissolves it over time.
Your body is not designed to handle extra fat on your frame. Your vessel size is designed for your muscles and other vital organs, not excess fat. Overweight conditions add the burden to the development of plaque that in itself can compromise your cardiac health. Couple that with an overloaded system and you too could be toast.
I for one have no pretense about being overweight. Being fit and lean is my goal but it's a personal decision that often times requires a complete change in lifestyle. If you are a firefighter, this is even more critical because of the high potential for sudden stress, which for some people could result in sudden death.
CBz…
world is changing and this includes firefighting tactics and operations. Assimilating the daily data dumps of information regarding firefighting, hazmat, ems, wildland, ARFF and on and on is easy for the younger generation, they do it daily without even thinking about it. Things like text-messaging, Twitter, and other data sources are routinely accessed without thought. Take one of the old school firefighter's and put them in front of a computer... The younger firefighters can run circles around the older firefighter's when it comes to the information age, unless you are dealing with a company officer like myself or others who you see here on the FFN. Computers don't intimidate some of us 'Old School' FF's, in fact, quite the opposite. We get it. It's a tool. Master the tool and you can master many other things. Pretty simple actually, but not readily apparent to all, hence necessitating more communication between folks to help one another adapt to the world of information and the www.
With the above comments, I question whether the company officers are getting the most out of their folks by taking advantage of the information highway... You are doing an inspection for example and come across a 500-gallon tank of muriatic acid on the top of a non-reinforced masonary 10-story building that produces sugar. Is the muriatic a hazard? What are it's properties? Should we be concerned? Ask a firefighter to do some research using google, etc. and guess what. You will learn something and use the younger firefighter to teach you. What a concept.
Having worked for eight-years at a fire station that was known for the rookie revolving door, I had a lot of firefighters that were rookies, including both men and women. The first two-years of a firefighters career are critical. They set the tone for the remainder of their career. I mention this because again, I place responsibility on the company officer to set the tone. Things like verbally trashing the department, the chief officers, the policies, the other agencies... none of this productive. An old school thought here would be, "If you don't have anything nice to say, then don't say it...".
The job of a firefighter is not an office white collar worker kind-of-a-job. This is a trade. And by that, I mean the way this gig is truly learned is by watching first, then doing under supervision, and then doing on your own. The key here is repetition and working together as a team. If the company officer does not "do things" with their crews, then things like esprit-de-corps (company/department pride) goes out the window. What you get in place is someone bringing in their own values and rules verses the departments.
Today's generation seems to be under the impression that they are "entitled" for some reason. I don't really understand why, I just recognize the obvious. My reality is having three daughters that have given me the "whatever" with their head cocked to the side and eyes looking up... as if... And I talk to others who have to deal with this whole what about me first attitude. I know that I am not alone here...
I had a real good reputation working with the newer generation because I got it. You no longer can bark a command without seeing that the individual is looking directly at you, in a stance that shouts, WTF? Questioning authority is not limited to the 70's generation anymore. Here's the good news... All you need to do to smooth things over at first with the "new generation" firefighter is to provide a reason or explain your logic flow. Yea, I know that it's not always the most efficient way to manage things but when you are dealing with someone just learning, it's really helpful to provide some additional description or explanation so they truly understand what ever objective I set out for them.
The bottom line here is that in my opinion, you cannot bring back 'Old School' respect without first leading by example and treating your firefighters with respect. You need to take the time to actually learn about what they like and dislike in general and get to know their strengths and weaknesses. To not do so means that you are not preparing for whatever hits you, and it will hit you as a team, or in my case an engine company. Continue this attitude and working calls together gets to be something your crew will look forward to doing, as a team. And as it has been said many times, "there is no 'I' in Team...".
TCSS,
CBz (ret)…
tandized, unlike FFI, but instead can vary greatly from community to community and gegraphic area to geographic area. Yes, there are common areas of knowledge and skills such as safety, fire behavior, SCBA,basic communications, size-up, NIMS/ICS, building search and rescue, self-rescue, maydays and rapid intervention and ventilation. But even basic areas such as building construction and water supply can vary significantly as what one department sees on a regular basis another department may never see, even in a likely mutual aid response.
I can teach the basics to the members of my VFD in 42-45 hours to operate in the district. They will have additional skills added once they complete the class through weekly drills. But I can give them what they need for our district in half the time of FFI. And they will be safe.
My combo department uses a different system, but it's a longer process because we have more hazards and a larger array of equipment.
And by the way, we encourage that they take FFI, either via on-line or a physical class once they finish the rookie class. It's the same with the volunteers on my combo department.
I fully agree that adequate training is essential, but my problem is piling training on small community and rural volunteers that they will never utilize simply to meet a standard that adds to department's recruiting issues by ballooning both the initial and on-going training requirements.
I know nothing about Moose's current training requirements or district in terms of building types, sizes and occupancies. I know nothing in terms of sprinklers, standpipes and other fixed systems. I know nothing about the services they offer beyond supression - extrication, technical rescue, haz-mat, wildland or the apparatus they operate. But I do know that his department is in the postion of determining the skills that thier members need to operate within thier response area, and they should be, IMO, the ones that determine what thier training will consist of, not a madate from the state.
It's not my call to comment on that as it's his department, but he has stated that it's an issue hindering recruiting.
Now the rumor mill has possible changes in haz-mat operations requirements being mulled over by NFPA as possibly doubling the length of a haz-mat operations course if they are made standard. That will be adopted, if it comes to pass by LSU FETI and simply make the road to FFI even longer.
Wonderful.
I do agree that there are volunteer departments with serious problems in terms of manpower. My VFD is very close the edge of being one of them. The only thing that keeps us at thias point from sliding over the edge is the fact that 3 of our officers work opposing 24-hour shifts as career members and the availbility of career multual aid from the neighboring small city on the east and my manpower-wealthy combo department to the west.
And there are many others in this part of the state that don't have the back-up my combo department has available. There are many, including a group of 4 in the northern end of my combo parish and a group of 3 in my volunteer parish, that have made adjustments including operational changes that has multiple departments training together and responding together on the initial call or cross-training which allows members from one department to respond with another if they happen to work or are in the other department's area.
That being said, the merging of districts in this area is often simply impratical due to the sheer size and distance, which can easily be 300 or 400 square miles covered by 15-20 volunteers. We discussed merging with the VFD to our north recently, however, the response time for our people to get there and thier people to get here on the first alarm assignment due to the sheer size of the district and distance was simply impractical. It was much simplier just to stay seperate and work as we have as mutual aid partners as the management of such a geographically large area under one department banner by volunteers was simply impractical.
Call reasonable standards for volunteers snakeoil if you wish. I call them a reasonable approach to maintain volunteer departments, often in communities with no other manpower options. …
Added by Bob Callahan at 11:49am on October 22, 2012
.S. Department of Homeland Security (DHS) today announced the adoption of 11 NFPA standards for emergency responders by DHS. The newly adopted standards will set requirements to assist federal agencies and state and local officials responsible for procuring equipment and services used by emergency responders.
"It is enormously important that first responders have the tools and qualifications necessary to perform their duties well - their lives and the lives of others depend on it," said James M. Shannon. "DHS has taken an important step in supporting the needs of first responders with the
adoption of these standards."
The documents adopted will provide direction and allow officials to make better procurement decisions in the following areas: professional qualifications, occupational safety and health, fire apparatus, personal
protective clothing, powered rescue tools, and other equipment.
"The threat of fire in any home, school, or business is a reality. To expect first responders to run into the current all-hazard environment without training, equipment and the basic tools to do their jobs, is unacceptable," said U.S. Fire Administrator Greg Cade. "These newly adopted standards by DHS further ensure communities have well-informed, well-trained, and well-equipped first responders, supported by manufacturers, and outside agencies dedicated to protecting the people of this nation."
The 11 newly adopted standards are:
NFPA 1000, Standard for Fire Service Professional Qualifications Accreditation and Certification Systems
NFPA 1001, Standard for Fire Fighter Professional Qualifications
NFPA 1002, Standard for Fire Apparatus Driver/Operator Professional Qualifications
NFPA 1006, Standard for Rescue Technician Professional Qualifications
NFPA 1021, Standard for Fire Officer Professional Qualifications
NFPA 1500, Standard on Fire Department Occupational Safety and Health Program
NFPA 1582, Standard on Comprehensive Occupational Medical Program for Fire Departments
NFPA 1901, Standard for Automotive Fire Apparatus
NFPA 1906, Standard for Wildland Fire Apparatus
NFPA 1912, Standard for Fire Apparatus Refurbishing
NFPA 1936, Standard on Powered Rescue Tools
The adoption of NFPA standards reflect the continuing support of a multi-year program in U.S. Department of Homeland Security's Science and Technology Directorate to build confidence in homeland security technologies, products, services, and personnel through the development and adoption of voluntary consensus standards. A list of the standards can be found on the Department of Homeland Security's Web site (www.dhs.gov) and the Responder Knowledge Base (www.rkb.mipt.org). The standards documents are available from the National Fire Protection Association (www.nfpa.org) and from the American National Standards Institute (webstore.ansi.org).
DHS previously adopted 14 NFPA standards that remain in use today. They are:
·NFPA 1600, Standard on Disaster/Emergency Management and Business Continuity Programs
·NFPA 1851, Standard on Selection, Care and Maintenance of Structural Fire Fighting Protective Ensembles
·NFPA 1852, Standard on Selection, Care, and Maintenance of Open-Circuit Self-Contained Breathing Apparatus (SCBA)
·NFPA 1951, Standard on Protective Ensembles for Technical Rescue Operations
·NFPA 1971, Standard on Protective Ensembles for Structural Fire Fighting and Proximity Fire Fighting
·NFPA 1975, Standard on Station/Work Uniforms for Fire and Emergency Services
·NFPA 1981, Standard on Open-Circuit Self-Contained Breathing Apparatus
·(SCBA) for Emergency Services
·NFPA 1982, Standard on Personal Alert Safety Systems (PASS)
·NFPA 1991, Standard on Vapor-Protective Ensembles for Hazardous Materials Emergencies
·NFPA 1992, Standard on Liquid Splash-Protective Ensembles and Clothing for Hazardous Materials Emergencies
·NFPA 1994, Standard on Protective Ensembles for First Responders to CBRN Terrorism Incidents
·NFPA 1999, Standard on Protective Clothing for Emergency Medical Operations
·NFPA 2112, Standard on Flame-Resistant Garments for Protection of Industrial Personnel against Flash Fire
·NFPA 2113, Standard on Selection, Care, Use, and Maintenance of Flame-Resistant Garments for Protection of Industrial Personnel against Flash Fire
On September 10, 2007, the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) and the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) released the draft of the new National Response Framework (NRF) for a 30 day comment period.
The NRF document and supporting information can be obtained and viewed at http://www.fema.gov/emergency/nrf/
Seems that DHS wants to put most of the responsibility on the locals and the feds will do little. The International Association of Emergency Manager has gone on record against this latest fiasco by the DHS.
So lets open up a descussion on what everyone feels or has heard about this??…
stand my situation. About 4 years ago my husband passed away. There was a lot of issues surrounding all of this obviously, but one of them was that his family came after all of his belongings and threatened me with numerous things. I eventually couldn't stand living in fear for my life anymore and walked away from my house to find a better environment for my son and myself. I went back to my old fire department where I had friends, support, and safety. As I got my feet back under me I ended up in a new relationship and had taken the position as training officer on the department. I got my FF1 and various other wildland certs. I was also running on the ambulance and on search and rescue. It was my perfect world almost. My whole life I have been fascinated and passionate about emergency services. I find myself totally content when working in this field. I was fortunate in that I had some really great friends that helped me with my son. They would run to the scene and pick him up or I could drop him off in route. Then things went sour with my boyfriend. He started being very harsh with my son, and we needed to end it. My son took this all very hard. Even though he was getting hurt by my ex he still wanted him in his life. The loss of 2 father figures in his life was very difficult. Around the same time my support system fell apart as my friends moved out of town. It became increasingly difficult to respond to calls, I was running out of paying work as well. I could see that dropping my son off with different people each time I had a call was getting hard on him and I needed to make a change very soon. I started looking at the possibility of joining a paid Fire department. The more I looked into it it didnt seem feasible in my situation. I would have to move to a city where I had no support and the places I was looking also required paramedic licensing(I was a basic) Plus they were all running 24 or 48 hour shifts and I knew I couldnt throw Devon into this new situation in such an unstable state. So, I started looking into getting my paramedic and getting on an ambulance crew. I spoke to all of my wiser paramedic friends and seemed to get the same advice over and over. They were getting older and had no way of retiring and the pay for paramedics was bad. I was advised to look into nursing. So, I did. It didnt seem like a good fit for me, I liked what I was doing, but the more i saw the struggle in my son the more I considered it. Finally I decided to go for it and find a good place for us to go in order for me to accomplish this. I convinced myself that I could still be involved with volunteer departments and that I might be able to get on a flight crew or work in the Emergency Department and that would suit me better. So, here I am on the entire other side of the country. I am near one of my friends that was part of the support group of friends that had moved from my previous location(she found the school for me-near her of course ;) I am going to school, and my son is settling in nicely. But, there is this naggin concern inside that I am making a mistake going into nursing. I'm afraid I wont be as passionate about it, and I really dont want to give up Fire, ambulance and search and rescue. I have recently applied at the local volunteer department, and am awaiting a background check. I know that education wont hurt me, and nursing is a good paying career that has a more condusive schedule for single parenting. I like helping people. I dont like the hospital environment in general, but think i could handle the ER, or a flight crew. I know that no one can tell me if I am doing the right thing, but I would like some opinions on the situation. What are you doing? and how does it work out? How are your kids dealing with it? etc.? To me taking a job in nursing is the sacrifice I am making for my child. If I were on my own, money wouldnt matter to me, I would just do what I loved doing, but now I have to look out for what makes both of us happy. Thanks for reading my rant.. :)…