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Why Does the Older Firefighter Have a Problem with Juniors/Explorers?
in my company there r very few firefighters that like the junior program is that the same in every company or jus mine and how come kids say stuff about us calling us wanna bes if they only really new how much we doo ....
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by ff/emt 2155 on
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you should not be taken your pager too school with you period
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Permalink Reply by CHIEF NORMAN on
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Well Eddie everyone has to learn sometime and in any of my training I introduce for my guys or other departments as a Chief I would much rather have a stupid question as to not asking any questions at all. If I'm able to mold a young mind as to keep them safe and there buddies then I have done my job. What I dislike is taking time to teach and what I have taught is not being used, and allot of time that is what is transpired thru the younger generation. Its not that us old superior firefighters are scared of change because we have to be flexible as times pass but its the concentration on things that have no meaning like bumper stickers, or pov's or whatever. What I try to do is nip that stuff in the bud right off the back and make those younger firefighters understand that the important stuff is what we do on day to day bases like ladders, hose streams, pump operations, incident command and so on. The way I look at it, is these younger folks will be the one someday saving me if I'm in a bind and need saving. In any department that has the problem your talking about and has a junior program there is or has been something that has went wrong for the superior firefighters to act the way they are toward the younger group. The deal is get to the root of the problem and fix it and make sure your whole junior group is on the same page and work together to fix the problem. Once that is done listen to what you’re being told and trained on and use that as a guideline to build upon. Good luck little brother and stay strong and you will stay alive!!!!
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Permalink Reply by Andrew Salinger on
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in our brigade you can sign up as a member the day you turn 16. You then go through minimum skills training before you are allowed to go on jobs. All new members young or old go through a 6 month probation period after which it gets voted on in a meeting to allow them to stay in the brigade or if they are more of a risk than a asset then they dont get let in. i dont think that we have any trouble with older members not liking us younger 1s. in fact they like us young 1s coz it means they dont have to work as hard.
There are a few brigades that run a junior FF program that gives the kids basic fire fighting skills (operate pumps, extinguishers, hose laying) it is a great program to run if the juniors actually decide to continue into the ranks when they turn 16.
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Permalink Reply by Norm Tindell on
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Keep on keepin' on, Eddie. Those older firefighters who give you a hard time will retire and you'll be "them" some day. Just do your very best, stay safe and follow your dream.
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Permalink Reply by Evan Orowetz on
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I dont know why the older members have a problem with it. I mean, truth is, when you turn 16 you CAN legally do a lot of things on the fire ground including exterior attack. So why not train up the juniors for those 2 years and get them as much experience as possible so that when they reach 18, they will be prepared to become an "active member" or "interior firefighter." I think sometimes the older members forget that years ago, they were in the same spot as we were. They dont remember what it was like, wanting to learn the trade and having a passion to get out there and help. Thats just my thoughts on it.
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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on
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I mean, truth is, when you turn 16 you CAN legally do a lot of things on the fire ground including exterior attack
WRONG
I think sometimes the older members forget that years ago, they were in the same spot as we were. They dont remember what it was like, wanting to learn the trade and having a passion to get out there and help
Not that at all, it is just your opinion. The issue is as issues have become more apparent and safety initiatives taken more precedence as well as legal liabilities and ramifications have come forth, it takes responsible people to look back and reevaluate things. You, as a younger generation, just see such things as "keeping you down" or "forgetting where they came from" type of thing.
Issue is, you are not ready and you are NOT an adult until you turn the magic age of 18. At 16 you can drive a car....so what? Does that make you an expert? Absolutely not. At 16, it is fine to be eager and want to learn the job, but there is a HUGE difference between learning the right way and thinking you are "entitled" to do something.
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They look down upon the younger firefighters and juniors/explorers and see them as inexperienced, unqualified or semi qualified nincompoops. They (Older firefighters) also see some of them as know-it-alls, smart-asses or plain old reckless without realizing that all of them were once probationary firefighters or juniors and were once (for lack of a better word) dumb like the current ones they look down on
Not really the case. There IS a big difference between a probationary FF and that of a junior/explorer. The Explorer program came to be to give teen a chance to experience a career to help decide if this is something they may want to pursue. Juniors/cadets, etc became an offshoot of that idea and a dept geared a program their own way. Explorers, juniors, cadets, etc are there to give a taste of the job, there is nothing that binds the kid to the dept, it is a matter of learning and many kids are eager. The issue stems from both kids wanting and "thinking" they should be utilized on firegrounds and adults too stupid as to allow such things.
A probationary FF is another person all together. The probationary FF is one who is new to the dept as an actual FF, at least a legal adult of 18. It doesn't matter how they came to be on the dept, whether a new hire, transferred from another dept, or moved from a junior/explorer to that of actual member. (I really could personally care less about specific dept operation in selection). The probationary FF is one who should be able to any job on the fireground, one who's job it is to learn the dept's tactics, tools, equipment, SOG's and so forth. The person is one a probationary status for a certain time before deciding if they are cut out for the job or not. A child should not have to meet those expectations and should be able to decide for themselves if they want to continue on to be a regular FF or a different path.
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Tyler,
Here such programs are up to the dept and the advisors. Explorers is a part of the Boy Scouts (Learning for Life) and any dept affiliated with Explorers is governed by a set of rules established by the Scouts. This is because the LFL provides the liability insurance for the participants. Some rules are, but not limited to, explorers are NOT to be used as a FF in any way, they can not climb aerial ladders, must have on PPE when doings hands on training etc.
Junior and cadet programs tend not to be affiliated with LFL and are established by an individual dept. This means the dept is on the hook for any liabilities encountered with the program. Problem with many such depts is they don't see the dangers involved and then you get what we see here, kids who think they are entitled and adults too stupid type of stuff.
Anything else that a dept wants to do above and beyond is fine. Some programs do train to get certs and fine with that, but they must do so the right way. The ideas that a kid should be active on a fireground is absurd. A kid can be close to the fireground, but should not be operating in the capacity of a FF in any way.....even exterior FF ops. Just because a kid suggests or is doing something more doesn't mean it is the case overall. Some programs may have a kid work on certs so that when they do turn 18, they can become a pobationary FF with the dept....that's fine.
You mention military cadets. A good assimilation would be that such cadets can work on their basic military requirements, learn the job be it sailor, infantry, artillary, etc, and so forth. If the person decides to join the military that work can count towards a higher paygrade. The kicker is that even if the kid was in the cadets, learned to march, so on and so forth, they STILL have to go to boot camp, they still go to training afterwards etc.
However, you do NOT see military cadets being sent to war zones, you don't see military cadets working with regular military, you don't see military cadets questioning how they are the future, how can they do the job if not allowed to do it now or get experience now. You don't see military cadets whining about what regular military thinks of them or how they should be treated like regular military.
With some fire depts out there and the mindset of many kids too, they may think just because one was an explorer/junior, they should be treated like a regular FF.....not the case.
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Permalink Reply by Jack/dt on
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"They look down upon the younger firefighters and juniors/explorers and see them as inexperienced, unqualified or semi qualified nincompoops."
This is an observation that one can only make through their own personal experience. What you stated is simply an uninformed opinion wrongly stated as fact with no personal experience.
"Experienced/Qualified/Trained/Old but don't or can't recall their history and their past and remember that they were once in that very same position."
This comment is very typical of the arrogance of youth. The first attack is always that the older/experienced has forgotten their past. This is nonsense. It's hard to believe that anyone actually forgets how they rose up threw the/their system. Any attitude one may later have is one that was likely developed from exposure to wise asses, nincompoops and idiots.
In the U.S. the legal age of majority is 18, at which they are considered an adult, can enter contracts, marry, join the military and do anything any other adult can do, with only a few exceptions. The are not considered minors and can be exposed to the same hazards and risks as any other adult.
"If I'm going to respect you even through you are 20+ years on the job, you'll going to have to show me you didn't waste 20 years by just getting through and what you have to teach me is actually something that's gonna help me somehow. It doesn't matter if you have 60+ years on the job, you can still be an incompetent moron who got through the fire department on sheer dumb luck and/or playing the right hands."
No, I don't have to show your or anyone any respect other than perhaps basic human respect. But beyond that, at least as it relates to the fire service, a person is going to have to earn my respect (whether or not you think it has any value). To unilaterally decree what an adult, an experienced and trained firefighter HAS to do to reassure you that he is deserving of your respect and attention is ludicrous.
I don't have to prove myself to you, any child or a probie. I only have to prove myself to my fellow firefighters and department. If their assessment of me is that I'm a good firefighter then that is all that I need to hear. To be confirmed by a probie is absurd and laughable, to be confirmed by a child is simply nonsense.
You have no point of experience to decree that a 60 year vet can be an incompetent moron. That it could be true is valid, but for you to make that determination is arrogance at a level that defies belief. You are not in any position to decide who is and who isn't competent as you have no training, no experience and little life experience of any consequence from which to make such decrees.
Overall you make statements that are invalid, opinionated, unsubstantiated and speculative at best. That you further choose to argue your point(s) with people that know better only suggests you to be arrogant and argumentative. And I've yet to come across any situation where a child has the right to argue with an adult nor have I come across one where a probie had the right to argue with other, more experienced firefighters. You want to express your opinion on sports or music, fine. It's all about likes and opinions, but when it comes to what is right or allowable the opinion of a child is little more than a high pitched whine; annoying, disruptive and a sign that someone needs their diaper changed.
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Permalink Reply by Paul Montpetit on
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Well said Jack....well said
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Permalink Reply by Matt Moore on
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I guess some of the Vets find some of us pestering, or annoying. Which, I will agree, some are. BUT some aren't, they are a big help on scene, and at the station. As for me... you'll have to ask some guys from the station to tell you which I am lol... But I did start a group sometime ago called "Explorer's Corner", any and all explorers are welcome to join, discussions much like this would be great on there.
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