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Vallejo Ventilation Video
Opening up the roof in Vallejo.
The video below is of a house fire in Vallejo, California. As we can see, from a limited view and without supporting information, lines are stretched and operating and the roof over the garage is about to be ventilated. Remember having more than one way off also means ladders at different locations. Plan your cut(s) so that you can work back towards your egress. Take a look at some of the articles from FireRescue Magazine/FirefighterNation.com on truck company operations.
We’re not specifically critiquing this incident, but using it as a prompt; why vent over garage fires if the hole you cut might only be half the size of the natural opening (garage door removed)?
Back-to-Basics Truck Training
Simple training evolutions to improve your crew’s truck skills
Jim McCormack
"One of the most common excuses for not conducting training is “we don’t have a training facility.” Give me a break! If you have a firehouse, then you have a facility."
Truck Companies’ Ability to Focus
Truck company success hinges on the crew’s ability to stay focused on the fireground
Jim McCormack
"We train every day in order to maintain our skills. (The key word here is skills.) But like everyone else, we don’t go to as many fires as we’d like."
The Why & When of Ventilation
What crews should know about when to begin ventilation—& why it’s so vital in the first place
Randy Frassetto
"Ventilation is too often an afterthought, only brought up when an interior company is driven to the ground from high heat and low visibility—and then frantically requested."
Bill Carey is the daily news and blog manager for Elsevier Public Safety (FireRescue Magazine/Firefighter Nation, JEMS and LawOfficer sites.) Bill also manages the FireEMSBlogs.com network and is a former volunteer lieutenant with the Hyattsville Volunteer Fire Department in Prince George's County, Maryland.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Don Catenacci on
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Opening the garage door here has 2 negatives in my mind. 1) It feeds the fire fresh oxygen at a low level and intensifies the fire. Perhaps even pushing it into the living space. 2) While a secondary concern, there is a car in the driveway and opening the garage door makes that car a viable exposure problem.
Tactically we are taught to get a head of the fire if possible to cut off extension and with attached garages that means getting inside to the entry door to the home and stopping the spread from there. If the fire hasn't yet breached the living area we may open the garage door to initiate attack. I am more inclined to go to the mandoor and open that for my first hoseline, if such a door is available, so as not to add a huge influx of oxygen. Once the fire is knocked down then open the garage door for ventilation and ease of final etiguishment.
In my mind the tactics used at the fire in the video of leaving the garage door closed, going interior with hoselines, and venting the roof over the garage are text book tactics and seem to work well.
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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The evolution worked...up to a point.
With the volume of fire pushing from the soffits and the top of the garage door opening after the roof was vented, the roof vent hole appears too small. With that volume of fire, even in a traditional, stick-built home, the rafters aren't going to last long. Cut an adequate hole and get off the roof is the preferred method.
A coordinated fire attack - directing a solid or straight stream into the top of the garage door opening - will cool the fire, produce steam that may smother the attic fire, and it won't push the fire into the structure. Fire movement is along the airflow path, and if the path is through the top of the garage door to the roof vent hole, that's where the steam will go - where the fire used to be.
An interior line should be able to cut the fire off from the living area provided that a) the fire hasn't extended into the house from the attached garage and b) that the fire hasn't extended into the attic over the living spaces, which will complicate the interior attack if it has already occurred.
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The problem in judging this fire, and the ventilation tactics and techniques, is that we have no clue whether the fire has breached the wall or door between the house and garage.
Most fire codes call for a 2 hour seperation between an attached garage and the living space. If that is intact we can make some assumptions during our size-up. A crew takes a line interior to the point of the door that seperates the garage from the living space, many times the kitchen area. If there is no breach of the wall or door that interior crew should open the ceiling in a few places to see if there is extension from the garage.
Frankly, I see too many FDs rolling up on this and opening that garage door and having the fire get a huge rush of oxygen causing that fire to grow rapidly. By leaving the door closed we limit the oxygen feeding the fire. I still would go to the roof and vertically ventilate. At that point, IF we haven't opened the door to the living space, or the fire hasn't breached that fire seperation, I would, as I said previously, open a man door and knock down the fire from there. If that wasn't available I may attack the fire through the top of the garage door initially. Once the fire is sufficiently knocked down I would then either open the door, if still possible, or cut it open to further attack the fire.
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Did you actually watch the video? This fire had a huge rush of air when it breached the top of the garage door, so there wasn't much limitation on the air supply. Without air, all of those pretty orange flames licking up the soffit would not have been there. Ditto for the large flame that pushed out the vent hole as soon as it was opened.
The other issue is that a lot of placed don't have a rated door between the garage and the living spaces, and either way, we don't know if it's open or shut until we look. Some of those doors are nothing but cardboard honeycomb with a layer of thin veneer glued to each side. I've seen fire go through those doors as if they weren't there, and garage fires rapidly push into the living space. Not all of those garages have an exterior man door, if that's what you're discussing. It's pretty tough to open a door that isn't there.
Either way, the interior line crew will have an easier attack if the garage fire gets a quick transitional attack through the obvious burn-through atop the garage door to cool and slow the fire.
Another option is to simply ram a piercing nozzle through the garage door and fill the garage with steam, especially if the interior crew gets a peek at the interior prior to entry and verifies that the door from the garage to the living space is unbreached.
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Did you actually watch the video? This fire had a huge rush of air when it breached the top of the garage door, so there wasn't much limitation on the air supply. Without air, all of those pretty orange flames licking up the soffit would not have been there. Ditto for the large flame that pushed out the vent hole as soon as it was opened.
Yes Ben, I did watch the video. Look at the video AGAIN and look at about minute 1:26 and you will see that 2 FFs attempt to open the door. Once they get it open part way the fire takes off. The truly amazing thing is watch what happens when the door closes again. The fire coming out the top of the door drops off again and blows harder out of the vent hole. It isn't until the top panels actutally burn through that the fire blows out the garage door hard again. They NEVER do open the garage door during the fire attack. There is no need to. They had the original vent hole and then went on the back side of the roof and it appears they are cutting a second vent hole there. It is impossible to tell 100% for sure but it looks like the fire attack originated from the interior of the house. They push the heat and steam right out the vent hole.
I know you are enjoying your self and your sarcastic answer to me but let's look at some things you said here. There truly is limited fire coming out of the top of the garage door, most of the fire is blowing out of the vent hole. RIGHT WHERE IT SHOULD GO! That is vertical venting 101, vent high to pull the fire to the opening to control its movement. I never said there was NO oxygen in the garage, or NO oxygen entering the garage to feed the fire. What I said was opening the garage door would cause an HUGE influx of oxygen low into the base of the fire rapidly increasing the fire. Just like it did when they attempted to open the garage door.
The other issue is that a lot of placed don't have a rated door between the garage and the living spaces, and either way, we don't know if it's open or shut until we look. Some of those doors are nothing but cardboard honeycomb with a layer of thin veneer glued to each side. I've seen fire go through those doors as if they weren't there, and garage fires rapidly push into the living space. Not all of those garages have an exterior man door, if that's what you're discussing. It's pretty tough to open a door that isn't there.
The rated door would depend on local or state code I would suppose. If it is built to most common fire code I believe that calls for a 2 hour seperation between the garage and the living area. I will check with one of our fire inspectors to make sure that is correct. Let's just for argument's sake say that is correct, if it is correct that would include the door being rated for 2 hours also. I can honestly tell you I have NEVER seen a door like you are talking about inbetween a garage and living space.
I agree that not every garage has a man door. OBVIOUSLY if there is nomman door attacking through that would no longer be an option. Thanks for that brilliant insight Mr Obvious. I have never seen a garage that didn't have a WINDOW or 2 or 3. So perhaps the initial attack could be made through them if the fire hasn't breached the living space. It seems, from the video, that the fire attack does come from the living space.
Either way, the interior line crew will have an easier attack if the garage fire gets a quick transitional attack through the obvious burn-through atop the garage door to cool and slow the fire.
I don't agree, and that is fine, the fire will eventually go out with either tactic. My disagreement comes in with the idea that even with the vertical vent you will push steam, heat, and smoke into the living area, right onto the crew about to attack the fire from that location. My thought is the vent is working properly pulling the majority of the fire and heat UP AND OUT, and I don't want to do anything to disturb that flow before I initiate attack from that interior doorway.
Another option is to simply ram a piercing nozzle through the garage door and fill the garage with steam, especially if the interior crew gets a peek at the interior prior to entry and verifies that the door from the garage to the living space is unbreached.
OR, as I mentioned above, pop a window and do the same thing without having to go to the compartment and then change nozzles to attach the piercing nozzle. Around here I can count on one hand, with fingers left over, the number of FDs that have preconnected peircing nozzles. I do agree under your circumstances that a piercing nozzle could work.
Ben, there are many ways to accomplish the same thing in the fire service. Your tactics may be what you are more familiar with. What I have described is what I am more familiar with. Fire rated seperation is common here. Man doors on garages are common here. Neither situation is right or wrong, it just is what it is.
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Permalink Reply by Brian Mackie on
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Lots of interesting points made here. When I first looked at the video.. I saw pretty heavy involvement in the garage. Since I don't know how long the fire has been burning..ie..how much of the roof structure is consumed upon arrival, I am not so sure I would let anyone on the roof anyway. My initial plan would have been to pull a minimum of two lines, probably 3 (as more crews arrive) and perhaps even a 2 1/2 just in case...(big fire..big water theory) and when (and only when) they are fully charged and in place, AND NOT BEFORE... I would get the big door open.. and hit that fire hard, and the second (or third) would protect the exposure (the car). Once the main body of fire is knocked down.. get in and check for extention into the living area.I am not sure about all the codes etc, but it appears to be an older home..and I would wonder if the building is up to today's codes, and what the codes were when the home was built. I would assume the worse case scenario and consider there might not be that two hour (or even one hour) separation, therefore the offensive attack would be aggressive even after the main body was knocked down to the point the crews could better determine if there infact was extention to the house I should mention.. simultaneously, a primary/secondary search of the living area, which may or may not reveal any further extentions into the house would high priority.I thought (rightly or wrongly) it took too long to get that mess of hoselines stretched and charged.. in amongst the few seconds it took to relocate them. Just an observation. Tell me how I did? lol good discussion. I like these kinds of threads much better than lights and helmet colors lol Stay safe!
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The thing to keep in mind too is once the homeowner occupied the home they could easily change that door and even if it originally was a fire rated door, doesn't mean that replacement would be.
The only change I would make in your tactics is that interior line MUST be in place before you do your attack because if that door or wall is breached the fire may already be spreading into the livin space.
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Yes, if at all possible, and again because I can't see the back..but certainly would assume there would have to be another entrance, (a 360 of the structure would reveal..) which most likely is a direct entry into the house...the search crews would advance the charged line from the unburned side. In the event the fire did gain access from the garage..it could/ would (and hopefully should) be met with a blast of an attack line. Of course keeping things in perspective, while that would be the plan, there are many variables that obviously could play into it, and things could change. They say a good indicator of an effective incident commander, is the ability to make changes in their strategy quickly. In some departments, I am sure this would be a defensive fire... in others.. it might start out defensive...then a change in the conditions might make an offensive stance possible. As long as the IC knows and understands (and more importantly.. makes the decision to change) his/her options.
Thanks Don.
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The garage fire had its first rush of air at 0:40 of the video when the firefighter bent down and partially opened the door. A straight stream or solid stream into the top of that opening would have made short work of the fire.
Vertical Vent 101 includes cutting a large enough hole to move the heat out below it. The vent hole in the video is too small to be effective. That is NOT Vertical Vent 101.
It never ceases to amaze me that you limit your thinking to how things are in your area, yet you expound here as if that's the only way to do things. Here's some evidence:
Non fire-rated man doors from garages to the attached dwellings exist all over the place, yet you haven't heard of them.
People sometimes leave the door from the house to the garage open, but you apparently haven't ever considered that could happen.
You like the hoseline to an exterior man door or a window in this situation, but don't like thinking about the thousands of attached garages that have neither exterior man doors or windows. (I think about every day - my garage is less than 10 years old, and has neither.)
You claim that an exterior hoseline will push smoke and steam onto the interior fire attack team, but that's not the case unless the fire attack isn't coordinated. Proper transitional attack shuts down the line as soon as knockdown is achieved. That won't push smoke and steam anywhere except out the vent hole.
Then again, if the home has the closed, fire-rated doors you are familiar with, then the smoke and steam can't get pushed through it.
Preconnected piercing nozzles are not necessary for what I described, but I'm familiary with departments that carry them for garages, mobile homes, round hay bale fires, etc. If you can't change a preconnect nozzle out with a piercing nozzle in under a minute, someone needs some training.
The bottom line is that you are posting on the World Wide Web, yet you keep trying to claim that there is only one way to do things based on how things are in your part of the world, and you conduct personal attacks on anyone who disagrees. This isn't the first time, and unfortunately, it probably won't be the last. It would be helpful for you to open your eyes and look around. It might be very educational for you.
I don't limit my perspective to how any one department does things or to how buildings are constructed in any one place. That seems to bother you, but it shouldn't.
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No, the interior line doesn't have to be in place. There's nothing wrong with a quick transitional attack to kill the seat of the fire, and then moving the line to the interior, even if only the first engine is on the scene.
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The garage fire had its first rush of air at 0:40 of the video when the firefighter bent down and partially opened the door. A straight stream or solid stream into the top of that opening would have made short work of the fire.
UNLESS the fire had breached the living space. Then it is entirely possible you would have pushed heat, smoke and steam down on the crew in that living space. You may think that is a good idea, I don't. That's why it is absolutely imperative to get a crew inside to check on conditions before ANY water is applied from the outside, whether through the garage door, mandoor (IF available) or a window.
Vertical Vent 101 includes cutting a large enough hole to move the heat out below it. The vent hole in the video is too small to be effective. That is NOT Vertical Vent 101.
If you watch the video they attempt to add to the vent hole on the backside of the roof but appear to be pushed back by the fire furiously venting out of the hole. It is difficult to dtermine the exact size of that vent hole, but one thing is clear the fire is venting very forcefully from the hole.
It never ceases to amaze me that you limit your thinking to how things are in your area, yet you expound here as if that's the only way to do things.
Really? I guess you missed this part of my previous post. maybe you should read the WHOLE post and not just what pisses you off:
Ben, there are many ways to accomplish the same thing in the fire service. Your tactics may be what you are more familiar with. What I have described is what I am more familiar with. Fire rated seperation is common here. Man doors on garages are common here. Neither situation is right or wrong, it just is what it is.
Here's some evidence:
Non fire-rated man doors from garages to the attached dwellings exist all over the place, yet you haven't heard of them.
That really isn't what I said now is it Ben. Geez if you want to rip on me and be all confrontational at least get what i said right. I said that I believed fire rated doors and a 2 hour seperation were code in Wisconsin. I didn't say I haven't heard of them, I said I have never seen one. There is a difference.
In fact I said the following in a reply to Brian Mackie:
The thing to keep in mind too is once the homeowner occupied the home they could easily change that door and even if it originally was a fire rated door, doesn't mean that replacement would be.
People sometimes leave the door from the house to the garage open, but you apparently haven't ever considered that could happen.
Dude you have a serious hard on for me for some reason, I am not sure why and frankly I really don't care. But this accusation is absolute Bull Shit. I said repeatedly we need to get a line inside to check to see if the fire had breached the living space. Next time I will write in crayon for you that the door may have been left open. The truth is it really doesn't matter how the fire breached the living space, open door, unreated door, crappy unrated construction, explosion in the garage that breached the door or wall, the results are the same EXTENSION INTO THE LIVING SPACE.
You like the hoseline to an exterior man door or a window in this situation, but don't like thinking about the thousands of attached garages that have neither exterior man doors or windows. (I think about every day - my garage is less than 10 years old, and has neither.)
No actually I like the line to the interior FIRST. I have said that REPEATEDLY. To me the garage is insignificant compared to saving the house. There are some garages in this area with no windows, but they are far from common. There are also some garages without mandoors, probably 50/50. You talk about using a penetrating nozzle, tell me how that is so much different from using a window or a mandoor if they are available? Further as I said I would not apply ANY water to the fire until I got a crew inside.
You claim that an exterior hoseline will push smoke and steam onto the interior fire attack team, but that's not the case unless the fire attack isn't coordinated. Proper transitional attack shuts down the line as soon as knockdown is achieved. That won't push smoke and steam anywhere except out the vent hole.
So is the vent hole now adequately sized? Becasue you have claimed repeatedly that it was not. I don't care how soon the nozzle is shut down if the wall or door has been breached you will push smoke, heat, and possibly steam on that interior crew. Golly we disagree...I can hardly wait to see how you attack me again over that.
Then again, if the home has the closed, fire-rated doors you are familiar with, then the smoke and steam can't get pushed through it.
Golly Ben, thanks for that geez whiz bit of obviousness. My premise has always been that IF there is a breach the attack should come FROM the living space. If no breach has occurred one of the other methods I mentioned, or even your piercing nozzle idea, if one was available, are viable options. Frankly, if the interior was still solid you could knock a panel out of the garage door to initiate fire attack. There are all kinds of ways to do this fire depending on what is actually seen during size up and checking the interior living space.
Preconnected piercing nozzles are not necessary for what I described, but I'm familiary with departments that carry them for garages, mobile homes, round hay bale fires, etc. If you can't change a preconnect nozzle out with a piercing nozzle in under a minute, someone needs some training.
Golly Ben, weren't you chastising me just a minute ago for:
It never ceases to amaze me that you limit your thinking to how things are in your area, yet you expound here as if that's the only way to do things.
I would guess that in my area that maybe 50% of FDs carry piercing nozzles. So while that may be a viable option it is only so IF your department has one.
The bottom line is that you are posting on the World Wide Web, yet you keep trying to claim that there is only one way to do things based on how things are in your part of the world, and you conduct personal attacks on anyone who disagrees. This isn't the first time, and unfortunately, it probably won't be the last. It would be helpful for you to open your eyes and look around. It might be very educational for you.
Ben, please just stop reading my posts because you are making yourself look foolish and kind of vindictive in your continued attacks on me. I stated this quite clearly in my last post, I guess you missed it.
OR, as I mentioned above, pop a window and do the same thing without having to go to the compartment and then change nozzles to attach the piercing nozzle. Around here I can count on one hand, with fingers left over, the number of FDs that have preconnected peircing nozzles. I do agree under your circumstances that a piercing nozzle could work.
Ben, there are many ways to accomplish the same thing in the fire service. Your tactics may be what you are more familiar with. What I have described is what I am more familiar with. Fire rated seperation is common here. Man doors on garages are common here. Neither situation is right or wrong, it just is what it is.
It is funny to see you claim I am making personal attacks when all you have done is attack me personally on here for my initial statements and everything else I have posted. Look in the mirror and see who is really doing the attacking. Then grow up and realize that there is more than the one square block where you live and there are many RIGHT ways to fight the same fire.
I don't limit my perspective to how any one department does things or to how buildings are constructed in any one place. That seems to bother you, but it shouldn't.
No Ben, it doesn't bother me. It s funny that you want to limit me to one department or one area. I am actually a career firefighter in a very diversified city with industrial, commercial, malls, hospitals, elderly housing and CBRFs, apartments, medical clinics, a medical college, hotels, motels, county run mental and legal facilities, as well as residential neighborhoods with SFDs and multi-family housing. Then I am a POC FF on 2 other FDs one mostly rural with farms, some light commercial, state highway, railroads, SFDs and multi-family housing. The other with a county highway maintenance garage and storage facilty, a cheese factory, large nursing home, mental lock up ward, and low income housing, as well as some light commercial, 2 state hiways bisect this village and a railroad trsck runs right through the middle of it. We have 2 working farms in the village too. Yep, I have a VERY narrow perspective...My bet is it is far broader than yours.
Add to that I am a state certified instructor teaching for the local tech college and I have done that for over 32 years now. I have been in dozens of different fire departments teaching and the one thing that I always tell the students is if I don't learn at least one thing from them during the couse of the class I wasn't paying attention.
So yeah Ben, you have me all figured out...NOT. Nice try but no points will be awarded.
Please do me a favor and READ what I right instead of making up absolute Bull Shit to try and discredit me.
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You need to stop sprinkling the paranoia on your breakfast cereal. I didn't make anything up - I responded to your confused attempt to prove that your two opposing points (fire-rated interior garage door vs. flimsy or open door) somehow led to the same conclusion. They don't.
Are you REALLY claiming that a transitional attack through a window or man door is OK and the same attack through the opening in the top of the garage door (you know, the one that you claimed wasn't there, but clearly is) are going to cause different outcomes? In your confused rambling, it appears as if you did, and that your interior line tactic is going to work the same with or without the transitional attack, and regardless of the status of the interior door.
There is plenty of research that shows that a factor that you ignore is a primary cause of heat, smoke, and fire spread. The FDNY is currently conducting experiments in how to handle that very problem. That factor is the exponentially higher heat produced by modern contents fires compared to legacy contents fires. The best way to stop that fire spread is to get water on the seat of the fire as quickly as possible, regardless of whether or not the interior door is substantial, flimsy, or open.
UL did extensive testing that supports the contention that hitting visible, flashed-over fire from the exterior BEFORE putting firefighters inside is a likely Best Practice, given modern fuels and their extreme heat production. The UL testing also debunks the theory of "pushing fire" from the exterior, as there was no heat increase in the interior exposure rooms.
You don't even need to mask up to hit this fire from the exterior. In the video, a short attack through the open top of the garage door, killing the seat of the fire, then moving the same line a few feet to the front door was a viable tactic without ANY roof ventilation or hunting an exterior man door or window into the garage, then moving the line to another side of the building. The other alternative to carry out your preferred method is two hoselines, which means either waiting on the 2nd due engine or going interior without cooling the seat of the fire - both worse options than killing the garage fire from the exterior then moving inside with the same line.
You also used a local example (the departments of which you are a member) in an attempt to claim that you maintain a wider view...while ignoring my comment about the World Wide Web that we're using here. Apparently, you have confused your Wisconsin Wide Web with that other one. My view is wider than that - national and international-level interest and study into building construction differences, fuel loading differences, etc. Your view may be fine for your departments, but extrapolating them more widely and then acting shocked that there are things you haven't seen doesn't say "wide view" to the observer.
As far as some of the departments in your area not having piercing nozzles, according to your earlier personal attacks on Bob in the Exterior Firefighter Certification debate, you should be castigating them for not being dedicated enough to get the piercing nozzles instead of defending them. Apparently, you have a double standard when you compare Wisconsin to Louisiana or South Carolina.
You also used a logical fallacy - The Appeal to Authority - in an attempt to use yourself as a source of expertise. That's silly - you're using the "Because I Said So" argument, which is meaningless. If your points are correct, they will stand on their own merits. Your reaching for personal credentials is evidence that your points can't stand on their own merit. If they did, you wouldn't be making up that little persecution complex that you seem to have and that doesn't exist anywhere but in your own head.
This discussion isn't about your imaginary points. It's about learning, and it's about being open-minded. You claim to be interested in learning, but when I hear "I've never seen that" and similar comments in response to things outside your comfort zone, your examples don't seem to back up your claims.
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