The Social Network & Community JUST for Firefighters
Thoughts on NFPA apparatus standards
OK, what’s your thoughts on NFPA apparatus standards. How far is this going to go? For the most part all are good, but still, there are a few. I personally feel in their goal to make trucks safer, they may be going a bit overboard. I’m going to take a guess here but 90% of all accidents are driver error, so why fix the truck? Before you know it there will be training wheels. I’m just whining because the truck we are about to purchase is 100 grand more then the last one we purchased 8 years ago. Is it any safer? Not that I can tell, there are a few more lights, a warning buzzer or 2, maybe another grab bar or slip plate, but basically the same. Yes I know costs go up annually, and in the last 2 years have made big jumps, but come on. The reason we are buying 2 years ahead of schedule is in 09 new NFPA standards will add an estimated 20 grand. I understand change is needed from time to time but do we need a black box to tell us it was driver error, or hooks for helmets, or single point air for the tires, when is enough enough? I’ll get off my soap box now.
Replies to This Discussion
-
Permalink Reply by Brian Boeseneilers on
-
thank you
-
Permalink Reply by Art "ChiefReason" Goodrich on
-
You are referring to the time honored practice of "incorporation by reference". For instance; if OSHA decides to tighten their respirator standard and NIST has standards that meets OSHA's approval, OSHA will take the NIST standard as THEIR standard and reference the NIST language in their OSHA regulation on respirators.
Neat, huh? But that's what they do. ANSI, ASSE, NIST; any organization with regulatory clout may be used in OSHA standards.
And I hate to disagree, but OSHA standards are LAWS! You violate an OSHA standard and are caught, you will be cited and most likely fined for the violation.
Around here, fire departments are regulated through the Department of Labor. The DOL uses OSHA as their "book".
So, with regards to seat belts; if someone isn't wearing one and there is a crash, you may get a ticket from the cop and if 3 or more go to the hospital and are admitted for injuries, then OSHA will pay your department a visit.
Then, you will be cited and fined for seatbelts. And if they find anything wrong with your recordkeeping, then expect more trouble.
There is only one way to keep them out...
Follow the laws.
TCSS.
Art
-
Permalink Reply by Trainer on
-
How many acronyms do we have to have before enough is enough, Ok I just had to say that. I’m reminded of the movie, can’t remember the title, Wesley Snips and Sylvester Stallone, wrecks a cop car and it fills with foam, I always though that was a great idea.
Safety first, a motto for a lot of companies, and a staple in the fire service, but we will never completely eliminate screw-ups or accidents, it’s the nature of this job. Training would be a solution to about 90% of this, but today we have so much to train on we tend to lose sight of the basics. In our goal to get better participation we try to make training fun and exciting, but at what cost. A great instructor once told me fire training is repetitive and boring.
Anyways back to the truck. It seems we are unable or unwilling to change personal, slow down, think, buckle up ect. so someone else make devices and standards to help us. Liability plays a part in some of this change, “whose responsible” now there’s a statement. This would be why that “fire axe” costs 300% more then the same one you can buy at Farm & Fleet. I’ll end here by saying it may appear that I’m against safety or change and I’m not, we need all the help we can get, but a group of people sitting in a room making decision for me, is not to answer.
-
-
Because of the situations and the people you just described, that is exactly the reason why everything is legislated and efforts to "idiot-proof" everything are made.
Here's another one for you: if these "Kyle Buschs" on departments don't slow down, you are going to see many more lawsuits, arrests and DEVICES to incorporate into vehicles to SLOW THEM DOWN.
We are very concerned about scene safety at MVAs.
Why don't they invent a sensor light that is installed on ALL apparatus and then require a sensor on all vehicles that detects the fire truck sensor and immediately slows the car down to 30 mph. And if they need to go slower, you have firefighters with heavy mag lites that they can throw at them if they don't. I think it's a great idea. I just might apply for a patent.
Bottom line is that HUMANS are involved. That is a screw up just waiting to happen.
Tough love, my man.
Tough love.
TCSS.
Art
-
-
I understand that, Ted.
So, if you go to OSHA standards on fire protection, you will discover that they will use NFPA standards as THEIR standards.
Same goes for industrial fire brigades. You will be held to the applicable NFPA standards and if you are not up to those standards, OSHA will, through our Department of Labor here in Illinois, cite you for violations and fine you for same.
If you have a trench rescue and you do not follow the rules and there is a collapse that kills a firefighter, can you guess what will happen next?
TCSS.
Art
-
Permalink Reply by Brian Dumser on
-
How many acronyms do we have to have before enough is enough
I hate acronyms also. Do me a favor and keep that on the QT, I don't want the CIA or the FBI to come and get me ASAP! LOL
-
-
I heard an Army Cornel once give a 20 minute speech using nothing but acronyms, funny as hell.
-
Permalink Reply by FETC on
-
OK as someone said, I posted the changes on Page 2 of this thread. After reading many posts, I see some are upset about a few items. First being the VDR or black box, all new cars and equipment have them, this was written into the standard to assure the industry has a say on what it monitors and for how long. The airline industry has had them updated over the years, an old 727 monitors at least 8 controls and the newer Airbus upwards of 40. Those standards have changed over the last 30 years to monitor more and more as technology evolves. Worried about the black box getting you at an accident? Are we guilty already??? Come on, you say 30 and we all know 30 with lights and siren looks like 50, then that black box will probably save your ass just as much as it will hang the others. Enbrace it, your POV probably has it already. At this time it will not be information that the FD can download for training, but you may lobby the NFPA committee if you feel it is needed.
I made a mention that older trucks are outdated, not specifically the guys truck who said he doesn't see it, because I am sure it is mint, runs well and pumps with the best of them but I meant technology wise. Now we all know steel cost more, aluminum costs more, Hell everything cost more these days. I loved the old manual pressure relief valve systems, but they don't make them anymore either. Why? Those were connected by mechanical cable. All new chassis's use computer controlled ignition and electronic throttle controls. Sans technology has evolved and they don't build them like that anymore. Do the old one's kick ass? YES many are still putting out fires, many work when the new computer takes a dump...
The next issue seems to be the helmet restraint. The seat backs as so tall that wearing your helmet will put deadly forces on your c-spine, during even a low to moderate impact. So they reccommended taking them off during the response and now as my friend Art said, "We have additional projectiles in the cab." I like his response, go look at your cabs and see what exactly can and WILL be a flying weapon. A portable radio will put a world of hurt on ya when you take it in the face! I suggest a work detail, on reducing the missiles, then when you get down to the must have stuff in the cab, strap it down! Get some old EMS cot straps and some fifty cent bolts, now that would be a very positive SAFETY work detail.
Donning of the SCBA enroute: nothing says you can't. The colored straps are to easily identify the seat belt vs the SCBA straps. Why? because we respond in reduced visability conditions. What color? Who cares, RED I believe is the standard in the big trucking industry. So the seat belt manufacturer's probably lobbied to keep it red, and not re-tool the line. I am not a fan of moving the SCBA's back out to the high side compartments either. This is a POLICY, HUMAN FACTOR and TRAINING issue that we can pretty much resolve ourselves.
I don't care if your status is career, call or vollie, our policies should all be the same.
1. Don all your gear before boarding the apparatus, all the time!
2. Secure your helmet, sit down and buckle up.
3. Driver should state everyone belted? and after confirming, then release the brakes and go.
3. Don the SCBA straps while enroute to the call.
Here is a video clip from the Denver Fire Department, on how to don your SCBA enroute to a call
while wearing your SEAT BELTS. I commend them on developing this video...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfHzrEon9Js
After watching the video, you can clearly see why having contrasting colored seat belt strap would make the procedure easier. Now if your guys do not like this procedure to don while enroute with your exisisting colored straps, then change the policy a bit.
1. Don all your gear before boarding the apparatus, all the time!
2. Secure your helmet, sit down and don your SCBA SHOULDER STRAPS first.
3. Don the Vehicle Apparatus Seat Belt over the SCBA straps.
4. Driver should state everyone belted? and after confirming, then release the brakes and go.
5. While enroute, the firefighter can then don the SCBA waist strap.
Bottom line is I see firefighters race to the station and then hop a truck with their gear in hand, now if you all feel it is ok the arrive on scene and then don SCBA because "it should only take a few minutes extra", then you will still have firefighters hopping the truck without donning their gear, dressing dangerously enroute and donning SCBA post arrival.
Not to pick on just the call or vollie guys, I see fulltime guys too who roll out of bed, drag their feet or take extra time to go to the bathroom before getting to the apparatus, then complain it takes too long to don their gear before boarding??? Come on, let's get dressed appropriately, ride safely while belted and be ready to go to work on arrival.
TCSS
FETC
-
Permalink Reply by Flyinghi72 on
-
Any and all changes to NFPA documents are from the public....so these changes are what the public or the industry want and are also subject to public review.
-
-
The NFPA does not "require" anything...it is the standard in which the technical committee, with input from the public, develops and maintains. The NFPA is merely the facilitator in the process of standard development.
-
-
There is a standard for apparatus driver/operator, its NFPA 1002. I have to say again the the NFPA does not tell you how to do anything...it is the technical committee and the public who develop the requirements. They are also voluntary standards, your choice to adhere or not to adhere....
-
-
Any fire department gets free access to NFPA standards. The Chief, or AHJ, has to make the request. It would be through that person that anyone on the department can get access to the standards.
© 2024 Created by Firefighter Nation WebChief.
Powered by
