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The Big Line
is it just me or does it seem that alot of todays younger guys are not choosing the proper line for the task at hand i know alot of departments mine included has sops on when to deploy the big line are people not wanting to waste the time with putting a 2 1/2" line in service
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Adam Smith on
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That's becuase a lot of new guys get tunnel vision due to the fact that we don't see fire these days the way our forefathers did. And the new guys forget to stop and think about the task at hand before jumping the gun. It also comes down to a good officer to know before getting on scene the building/ residents and the type of construction.
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Permalink Reply by Jeff Cole on
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It's the Officer's job to order the right line for the amount of fire and the probability of fire spread, etc. Pulling an udersized (gpm) line seems to be a VERY common problem. It's evident by many of the videos here, and elsewhere, and just by watching other department's that don't seem to understand simple "firefighting 101". Couple that with the fact that very few departments actually flow test all their apparatus discharges with the hose and nozzles they use, and you define the problem.
What the formulas of flow say, and the reality of what hose your using is sometimes very different. Mathmatical calculations of friction loss have been taught to be the standard. Invest in a quality flow meter, use it properly, and then flow test your preconnects, side discharges, rear, fromt bumper, etc, and make sure to use every different brand and model of hose you have, and pump to your departments specs...and in many cases you will find where you thought you were flowing 180 gpm, you may be flowing far less.
Much of this problem is the fault of poor habit, poor training, and the rush to get a line...any line on the fire just to flow water. Building materials, furnishings, and all those factors that add up to what we call fire load have been proven to produce hotter fires, that burn faster, which translates into faster fire spread. The 1.75" line is basically meant for interior attack, a room or two that can be quickly controlled. We switched from 1.5" to 1.75" back in the 70's-80's to increase flows when the staffing of the prior decades started to decline.
However the combination nozzle became extremely poplular, and those increased flows needed higher pressures, sometimes much higher to take advantage of the quarter inch diamter increase. Firefighters complained the line was too stiff, manufacturers information was...well, what it was. Nozzles were purchased becouse of the stream distance, not the flow rates at acceptable pressures. Along with that was the popularity of the "fog" attack, the total misapplication and misunderstanding of Loyd Layman's work...and the majority of departments and engines carried the automatic nozzle, preconnect 1.75' hose lines, and pressure policy that equated to almost the same flows as 1.5" hose that was replaced.
It should have nothing to do with the notion that we don't see the fires as previous generations. They ARE hotter, faster-spreading now. It's up to department heads, and the subordinate officers to train their personnel properly. MANDATE the proper size hose line is stretched, TRAIN on the HOW to stretch, pump, and advance these lines. NEVER pull a 180gpm line on a large body of fire, especially for containment and expossure protection.
180 should now be the minimum capability of the interor attack line of 1.75". If staffing is a problem (and it usually is) try 2". Let the pump do it's job so the firefighters can do theirs. "New' guys" can only think of doing what they are trained, and how they are trained. The ooficers need to be held accountable, and those who are in charge of training. Do your own research. Do not trust the salesmen and the manufacturer's hype.
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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I don't think it has anything to do with the age of the firefighter or how long they've been a firefighter.
It has more to do with how the engines are set up, how the department trains, and having SOGs that specify line size and type for given occupancy types.
In my department, we use a lot of 2.5 inch, either as a leader line for two 1.75 inch lines, as a single blitz line, or even to feed a lightweight portable monitor.
With our new standardized engines and standardized nozzles and hose beds configurations, we use more preconnects than in the past, but we still hand-jack a lot of 2.5 inch.
We also switched to 50-PSI combination nozzles, so we can easily get 300 GPM from a 2.5 inch leader line wyed down to two 1.75 inch lines.
The other problem is manpower - the departments that use 2.5 inch a lot tend to be urban departments with many large-sized occupancies and more manpower than the rest of us have.
There's also the issue of stretching the line wet or dry. If you have lots of multistory buildings, you can stretch a dry 2.5 inch more easily than you can stretch a comparable length of 1.75 inch and get at least 100 more GPM at the tip. On the other hand, if you have mostly SFDs 50 feet from the street, you're going to do a lot of preconnect work.
Proper line selection comes down to the officer - train the crew to think about line selection instead of the knee-jerk, grab-the-preconnect mentality, do accurate size-ups, have good SOGs, and select the right line size for the occupancy, fire conditions, and available manpower.
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Permalink Reply by FFN WebTeam on
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Worthy of a 2 1/2-inch line? Or is the first reaction to grab a 1 3/4-inch line and protect the exposure?
http://www.firefighternation.com/video/firstdue-video-college-park-md
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1st engine should lay LDH on the way in. The officer does a 360, then joins the nozzleman on the 1.75 inch exposure line for the D exposure after giving his initial report and passing Command. The hydrantman operates the deck pipe on the seat of the fire after charging the hydrant.
2nd engine - Officer establishes Command and accountability if the B/C hasn't arrived. The 2nd engine's nozzleman and hydrantman operate a second 1.75-inch line on the B exposure.
The truck splits the crew - the officer and driver evacuate the D exposure and the driver and tillerman evacuate the B exposure.
3rd engine - initial RIC.
Medic - establish Medical/Rehab group
B/C - assume Command and re-assign the 2nd engine's officer to his choice of Safety, Division C, or Recon.
We would ask for one additional engine. The working incident call would get us 2 additional chiefs and the Emergency Management Coordinator, the PIO, and the Investigation Unit.
The 2 additional chiefs would cover the open roles in the Safety/Division C/Recon choices and the EM Coordinator would cover the Liaison Officer role.
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Permalink Reply by Moose on
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Complacency and crosslays...Hey sounds like a good title for an article! People get too complacent today and simply pull the crosslay because its right there. They tend to forget there is even any hose at all in the back hose bed. Departments need to train more on the proper handline and how to stretch it, especially with lack of manpower.
I was always taught big fire big hose. If there is a few rooms in a residential house then I want the maneuverability of the 1 3/4" line and the gpm's it puts out. If there is a floor involved or even a store or industrial facility Im pulling the large bore stuff and hitting it hard. Like mentioned already though, its up to the officer to decide what to pull, and if they are not telling the crews what to pull, than there is a breakdown in command structure and it needs to be addressed at drills so it does not happen in the future.
You need to think about the distance to the fire as well as the GPM's needed though, and you need to make sure you have enough line to reach the seat of the fire and have enough to advance.
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Permalink Reply by Jack/dt on
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It's easy for us, our (preconnect, crosslay) attack lines are 2" x 200ft with break away adjustable.
Preconnect, 2 1/2" crosslay, 300ft with smoothbore for all commercial work. Coming off more often now for calls to the large McMansions. Also great for well involved attached garage fires or ones with car inside. Great penetration and gpm's.
5" LDH, lay in from the hydrant, most homes have a setback of 60ft or less.
We also have 300 ft of 3" preconnect off the back to the stinger.
And of course, there's always the deck gun.
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What's with the wimpy 3-inch to the stinger?
We run 5-inch to ours.
Isn't "Big Fire, Big Water" just another way of saying "Size Matters"?
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Around here we're not so much size queens.
Besides, if there's any chance in hell, we're gonna unleash the deck gun, take the wired remote into the cab, turn on the heat or A/C, kick back and go to work. Then we wait for our catered meal(s) to arrive. I hate it when the croissants aren't fresh and warm.
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What, no wireless remote?
Just don't confuse the monitor remote control with the tanning bed remote control.
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There was an issue with interference from the wireless remote and the flat screen TV.
Go to adjust the deck gun and don't ya know it, the channel would change. Change the channel and the deck gun would move. Had to shut down the gun so we could finish watching the movie.
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Permalink Reply by Paul Shapiro on
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300' of 3" to a portable monitor can flow 800 GPM. 3" is easier to deploy. great tool for minimum manpower. Doesn't sound whimpy to me.
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