The Social Network & Community JUST for Firefighters
Ten Minutes in the Street: "On-scene with a whole lot of Fire Showin"
You could see the glow blocks away, but you waited until you arrived on scene and transmitted a working fire. Actually, you’re words were something to the effect of……
Well anyways, you’ve arrived and you have Heavy Fire evident on numerous floors and extending. You have escalating exposure issues, a rapidly expanding and developing fire with what appears to be lots of fire load in a very old building. If that wasn’t enough, you’ve got the balance of the responding alarm assignment heading your way and fast. You are either the first-due engine company officer or the first-due command officer. (You pick)
In either case, You are the incident commander.
• The building is and L-Shaped structure, circa 1925, with a brick construction.
• You determine construction type
• It’s sized about 80 ft x 120 feet (excluding the L-extension).
• The building is four stories in height.
• It has been vacant for an extended period of time
• It was scheduled to undergo renovation into condominiums.
We’re going to focus our time in the street onto the areas of incident command, preparing for extended operations and developing an incident action plan (IAP).
Here are the simple things to start your tactical gears grinding;
• What is the main goal of your initial IAP?
• What needs to be determined First?
• What are the first series of Strategic Objectives and Assignments?
• What would be the first series of Tactical Level Assignments be?
• What are the realistic resource needs required for this incident?
• What’s your incident management organizational structure going to look like?
• Assuming the degree of fire present now upon your arrival, what do you expect the required fire flow to be sixty minutes from now?
• What are the safety issues that you’re planning for?
• What are you going to do about the exposures?
• When confronted with a fire of this magnitude, what do you think are some of the major considerations that a large scale fire might involve?
Ok, this may be a “typical” fire to you, or it might be one of those career incidents that only come once in a great while. In any event, you’re in the street, you are in charge and there are companies calling you requesting assignments. Oh, by the way, the neighbors are beginning to be drawn to your vehicle, all looking for an immediate answer and resources to keep their homes (exposures) from being part of this “Really Big Fire”. Hey, did you remember to put more ICS forms in the book before you left quarters?
Replies to This Discussion
-
Permalink Reply by Michael C. Harrison on
-
So....you WERE saying 10,000 FDNY firefighters can't possibly be right.....in regard to...what then?
I don't recall saying anything about a 600' 1 1/2 that I like so much....I did mention the 350' and 400 ' lines that can be extended if/when needed.
And gone are the days of gasoline powered pumpers (at least around here) where you had to worry about the rpm's and oil changes while pumping. We have no problems operating our pumpers (annual hose testing as you may call it) and many of them have quite a few more pumping hours on them than many jurisdictions.
I make no artificial limitations to anything.....I WILL NOT/HAVE NOT taken a 2 1/2 line into a burning structure (house/building/6' cube) that is so far gone that large caliber handlines and masterstreams are needed/being utilized ....no matter what you say about the FDNY.
P.S. whats with the "video night" thing....is that a signature you left on...or have I misinterpreted something?
-
Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
-
FDNY takes 2-1/2 inside for interior attacks on a routine basis.
You don't think that is necessary.
The building doesn't have to be "far gone" in order to use 2-1/2 or for it to be needed on the interior, no matter what you like or what your department does.
Note that I have never said that you can't/won't take a 2-1/2 into a burning structure. But, since you brought it up, neither did Charleston...until after 5-18-07. Now, it's a different story, because they use better strategy and tactics.
Maybe you and your department could learn from that...
-
-
Jeff, my point was not that the fire department should be performing the task-level traffic and crowd control, that's clearly a law enforcement function.
However, the Incident Commander should be coordinating the traffic and crowd control, because how those tasks are carried out can affect the firefighting operation.
Example: Law enforcement moves traffic from Oak Street to Maple Street without discussing it with Command. Command needs to have second alarm companies lay supply lines across Maple Street, but there is a delay because that's where the traffic jam is now parked. This problem could have been avoided by Command asking to have the traffic to be re-routed to Pine Street, one block over.
Example: Law enforcement puts most of their patrol assets on crowd control on Side A of the fire, because that's where they see the crowd. Meanwhile, building occupants are running in and out of Side C engaged in their own salvage attempts, because law enforcement didn't realize that is a problem.
Example: There is hazmat storage in the building, and the police are herding the bystanders into a downwind area where the atmosphere is contaminated.
If Command looks at the scene and the surrounding area with a global perspective, and coordinates the crowd control and traffic control with the police Ops officer at the command post, then these kind of mis-communications or mistaken assumptions on the part of law enforcement can be headed off before they occur.
-
Permalink Reply by Jeff Cole on
-
I understand Ben.
I swore I didn't want to get involved with this back-and-forth bickering, but I am beginning to see something here.
We can well beyond the FDNy, and we can looka t Boston, for example...and probably hundreds of other departments. I think we may be lsoing more property by failng to pull the 2.5", and getting in the habit of pulling the smaller lines when the flows to CONFINE and control the fire are even marginally beyond the 150-180gpm avaerage of a 1.75" line. An engine company of three or four firefighters can effectively stretch, and advance a 2.5" hoseline, and make quick work of an extending interior fire rather quickly, and even safer, then trying to fight against well-involved area (especially commerical and large area properties) with a smaller line just becouse it maybe a little easier to handle. For that matter, I would rather double-up the companies to move the line, as oppossed to stretching two smaller lines.
If you're gonna loop something in the street, just plug it into an outlet of master stream.
-
Permalink Reply by Smoke Eater on
-
WOW!!!! What the hell happened here? Michael, you have to realize that Ben started out with posting an opinion. It was in no way, shape, or form a personal attack on you and yet that's how you took it. Bringing up the Charelston 9 was very disrespectful to both Ben and the Charelston FD. Someone there made a mistake (a huge mistake) but bringing that up here was inappropriate. Chris posts these scenarios for us to learn from them, period. We can discuss and trade ideas and maybe even learn something new from eachother (God forbid). But lets not turn an opportunity for learning into a debate about who is right or who is wrong. Yes P.D. should handle crowd control but who does it before they get there? "Vent crew" is exactly what it sounds like. And who cares what size of hoselines we use? That's like saying yours is bigger than mine. It sounds like a boys locker room debate. People say how they do things at their dept. and that's it. You may not agree with them, but don't turn it into an argument.
Sorry. Just finally had enogh of the crap!!!!
-
-
Who does it until they arrive???
-
-
FDNY takes 2-1/2 inside for interior attacks on a routine basis.
You don't think that is necessary.I do not recall saying that anything the FDNY did or does is unnecessary ( I am sure I misquoted you again) yet I do remember saying that if a building/house/structure (whew...hope I got all possible combination's there) is so far gone that 2 1/2's and masterstreams are needed that I will not go inside.....call it dogma (call it whatever you want) but you still will never convince me to do otherwise....and you can say that it will kill me....yet I say the exact opposite.
The building doesn't have to be "far gone" in order to use 2-1/2 or for it to be needed on the interior, no matter what you like or what your department does.and people operate different than you....no matter what you or your department like or do (apparently it is hard for you to understand the concept that people operate different from you....or...let me rephrase that....apparently, people that operate differently than you/your dept. operate wrong......I appreciate differences in operations and look at those differences and see if when they would be useful to me, seems like a difficult process for you to comprehend.....dogmatic???? Hmmmm
Note that I have never said that you can't/won't take a 2-1/2 into a burning structure. But, since you brought it up, neither did Charleston...until after 5-18-07. Now, it's a different story, because they use better strategy and tactics.Woo Hoo....now you got to bring it up (happy now?) and as I have said NUMEROUS times......I am not an expert on Charleston's operations (past or present) but I would assume that they no longer use boosterline as inital attackline on any structures anymore (please correct me if I am wrong) and using boosterline on a structure fire is something that I haven't/don't and NEVER will advocate.....(there's that damned dogma again) so, as much as you have tried to blame me, insinuate that I operate just as they did in the past, or have the same mindset as their dept.....I will once again have to disagree with you
Maybe you and your department could learn from that...I believe that I can learn from many different things.....it would be great if others were the same way.......but I highly doubt that is possible given current and past discussions
-
-
Confusing NIMS (a federal standard) with NFPA (a private organization) is, well, confused.Ummmm....I hope that cleared things for people that did not know the difference
Having a committee member doesn't make the department compliant as you well know.Obviously I failed to make my point understandable , I never meant that having a committee member as the Chief of Dept.(or any other member of Dept) made that dept. compliant......I was trying to point out the irony of having a member of said committee not only running the Dept. but also in charge of/narrating the demonstration that failed to have any similarity to being within the guidelines set up by said committee.
Kinda like if you are drinking beer and smoking weed while driving your children to school, and tell your kids that drinking and driving and drugs are bad.....and then you try to hold them accountable for those same actions later (altho it may be the right thing to do).....you will be perceived as a hypocrite and an idiot (among other things) hope that explained things a lil bit better for ya
As for describing your department's way to do things, if you use a non-standard term, then you need to explain it or it will cause confusion. If it's not explained, people will ask for an explanation...and amazingly, that's what occurred.and when youtried to browbeat measked for clarification , I do believe that I tried to explain it (altho I am SURE that my explaination wasn't up to par for you)
If your department calls "truck work" a "Vent Group" on every fire, even when no ventilation is needed and you pound it here, that's more evidence of dogma, and dogma will eventually get someone killed.not really sure if I "pounded" anything here (not really sure what you are trying to say)
I say that trucks doing truck work (because of "dogma" or S.O.P.'s or because of orders given by the IC) will not eventually get people killed, I say the exact opposite (unless you are trying to say that because of the inherent dangers of firefighting that "somewhere, somehow" unfortunately another fireman/firefighter will pass away in the line of duty while assigned to a ladder/truck/tower company....that I agree with, yet not for the reasons you stated)
And...whether you call it that or not, a company operating by itself is a "single resource".
A company split into two teams is two "single resources".YOU may call it "single resource " and you may break it down to "single resource Truck 101 forcible entry to command....we have forced entry and will now be transforming to single resource truck 101 search, along with truck 101 vent along the way if we come across any windows that need to be vented", or however that works for you......I THANK GOD that on a standard box alarm, our trucks are normally assigned "vent" group" and they slap ladders, force entry, ventilate, and search.....ALL without having to tie the radio up for hours informing their "single resource" status changes and so forth. But I am sure that somehow that line of thinking and operation will once again get someone killed (according to you)
Two teams...hmmm, like splitting a single truck company into two teams, one searching and one throwing ladders...yanno, stuff like that?WHOA....is that even POSSIBLE to do? <----that was a rhetorical question, we/I operate that way.....which means that either YOU do not.....or I can and do, actually do things that will not get someone killed.....wow...I'm getting nervous now
-
-
WOW!!!! What the hell happened here? Michael, you have to realize that Ben started out with posting an opinion.As did I It was in no way, shape, or form a personal attack on you and yet that's how you took it.if you feel the need to, you may go and look at past posts between Ben and myself.....then you will see the history of the posts between us, and why I may have responded to his post......you may not agree with it, but it might give you some insight Bringing up the Charelston 9 was very disrespectful to both Ben and the Charelston FD.and exactly how is that? and if MY bringing it up in this thread upset you....you may NOT want to research past posts between Ben and I.....because you will get REALLY upset at the references that have been thrown around about them Someone there made a mistake (a huge mistake) but bringing that up here was inappropriate.Hmmm....a fire dept web board....a fire dept....I see no way shape or form that discussing them/that is inappropriate (yet I have been told that I am wrong about things on just about every post I have made.....so, I assume that this is just another one...batting 1000 ) and you might just want to look at the context in which I made my comment about Charleston before you get all upset and try to jump on me....then again, you may not want to Chris posts these scenarios for us to learn from them, period. We can discuss and trade ideas and maybe even learn something new from eachother (God forbid).apparently that is not possible if someone/somewhere operates differently that Mr. Waller or his department But lets not turn an opportunity for learning into a debate about who is right or who is wrong. Yes P.D. should handle crowd control but who does it before they get there?if this question is for me....I would say . anyone else that has a firearm and training and has the legal authority to detain/arrest persons......NONE of which my dept has (barring the armed investigators....yet they shou up after the situation is mitigated) "Vent crew" is exactly what it sounds like.apparently not, yet I believe I explained it (maybe not to the standards of some on this board) but I am willing to explain it to you if you would like And who cares what size of hoselines we use? That's like saying yours is bigger than mine.I believe I would then be accused of saying, "mine is smaller than yours".....but that was a LONG and drawn out debate on another thread.....that for some reason was brought to this one.....I don't recall bringing it here, but I will accept responsibility and blame for that It sounds like a boys locker room debate.maybe so, or it may sound like an internet forum debate,,,,either way I believe many great things are learned in debates People say how they do things at their dept.as did I and that's it. You may not agree with them, but don't turn it into an argument.it seems like this last sentence is also directed at me.....if so you may want to re-read whom is saying someone else is operating "wrong".
Beyond anything, my Departments operate the way they do and I operate the way I operate because it works for us (no....not "because it's always been done that way" as I have been accused of saying in the past) and if that is not up to par for individuals on this board.....I can only apologize to you. I can assure you that if and when a better way to operate presents itself I will do my best to evaluate it and implement it.....till then we will operate the way we do.........AND I will continue to post on these boards anytime I wish and on any subject I wish.......until such a time as the owner asks me to leave/bans me
P.S. if you don't like what I say......then , just like in real life......ignore me
-
-
I've said my piece. That's it.
-
-
Eschew obsfucation.
© 2024 Created by Firefighter Nation WebChief.
Powered by
