The Social Network & Community JUST for Firefighters
Ten Minutes in the Street: "On-scene with a whole lot of Fire Showin"
You could see the glow blocks away, but you waited until you arrived on scene and transmitted a working fire. Actually, you’re words were something to the effect of……
Well anyways, you’ve arrived and you have Heavy Fire evident on numerous floors and extending. You have escalating exposure issues, a rapidly expanding and developing fire with what appears to be lots of fire load in a very old building. If that wasn’t enough, you’ve got the balance of the responding alarm assignment heading your way and fast. You are either the first-due engine company officer or the first-due command officer. (You pick)
In either case, You are the incident commander.
• The building is and L-Shaped structure, circa 1925, with a brick construction.
• You determine construction type
• It’s sized about 80 ft x 120 feet (excluding the L-extension).
• The building is four stories in height.
• It has been vacant for an extended period of time
• It was scheduled to undergo renovation into condominiums.
We’re going to focus our time in the street onto the areas of incident command, preparing for extended operations and developing an incident action plan (IAP).
Here are the simple things to start your tactical gears grinding;
• What is the main goal of your initial IAP?
• What needs to be determined First?
• What are the first series of Strategic Objectives and Assignments?
• What would be the first series of Tactical Level Assignments be?
• What are the realistic resource needs required for this incident?
• What’s your incident management organizational structure going to look like?
• Assuming the degree of fire present now upon your arrival, what do you expect the required fire flow to be sixty minutes from now?
• What are the safety issues that you’re planning for?
• What are you going to do about the exposures?
• When confronted with a fire of this magnitude, what do you think are some of the major considerations that a large scale fire might involve?
Ok, this may be a “typical” fire to you, or it might be one of those career incidents that only come once in a great while. In any event, you’re in the street, you are in charge and there are companies calling you requesting assignments. Oh, by the way, the neighbors are beginning to be drawn to your vehicle, all looking for an immediate answer and resources to keep their homes (exposures) from being part of this “Really Big Fire”. Hey, did you remember to put more ICS forms in the book before you left quarters?
Replies to This Discussion
-
Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
-
If you only have one way to fight interior fires, you're going to have failures when your only tactical choice doesn't fit the situation. I like to have a range of weapons between "nose in the fire" and "surround and drown". Apparently, you don't.
It appears to me that using only small-caliber lines and pushing in as close as possible to every fire is a mindset with both you and your department from your posts here and from the video of the demonstration.
Your track record here is a refusal to admit that there is anything between the two and you dogmatically support your position. Dogma can get you killed. There are plenty of examples in the history of the U.S. Fire Service. "Those who do not learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them." Santayana.
I wouldn't have used a 2-1/2 for the demo. I would have used the stream reach of the 1-1/2 and moving the stream around to suppress the entire fire without entering the demonstration box. However, if someone can't do that, maybe the 2-1/2 would work for them.
Enjoy video night.
-
-
Permalink Reply by Michael C. Harrison on
-
2.5" lines are dangerous and rediculous used as interior handlines? Just the opposite. Departments that fail to train using handlines larger than those two room 150-180gpm handlines are dangerous. But I aint gettin' involved in the above shoving match. That just caught my eye, and is something I consider to be problematic in the fire service today.there is a WHOLE thread about this titled "your opinion of 2 1/2 inch as interior attackline" or something along those lines
And I was foolish enough to post my opinion (much to the dismay of my buddy Ben) and now he just keeps throwing it out there to try to discredit me in other threads (which doesn't work)
But yes, I still stand by MY statement that if a building is so far gone that 2 1/2 lines are needed.....sending people INSIDE on thise lines is useless, rediculous ...and so on, just loop it around in the street and sit on it while the wagon pipes and ladderpipes and the 2 1/2 EXTERIOR lines flow
-
-
Posted by Ben
Apparently your department doesn't believe in NIMS compliance or interoperability, then?
If letting the police handle police matters (in which they are trained and armed to handle....like Crowd Control) is "non _ NIMS Compliance" or "non-interoperability" then I am going to have to say YES, YEs my department fails in the NIMS Compliance section of not doing the police departments job.....you really got me there Ben, now I have to look for a FD job where they will teach me Crowd and Riot Control so the NIMS police don't come get me.....but then the police wouldn't need to arrest me, because the NIMS Compliant FD could just do the police dept's job....right?
But then again....I thought my Dept was 1403 Compliant (seeing as the Chief of Dept. was on the Committee.....yet Youtube blows that out of the water.
-
-
Well, Mikey, if you're doing basic truck work and having the truckies multitask, then you don't need the "Vent Group" especially when you have three floors of fire already vented.
You just assign the trucks as "Single Resources".
And, no, I don't think you need an additional unit to break every window, force every door, or make every point in a post.
I don't have any blinders on about people operating differently than what I'm used to. I understand that you don't think NIMS is your Bible...it's not mine, either. However, if you're going to use the term "Vent Group" in a way that's confusing to anyone that understands plain English, you shouldn't get offended when someone questions you about it. Or...do you think sewing confusion makes large fireground operations more effective?
-
-
"But yes, I still stand by MY statement that if a building is so far gone that 2 1/2 lines are needed.....sending people INSIDE on thise lines is useless, rediculous ...and so on, just loop it around in the street and sit on it while the wagon pipes and ladderpipes and the 2 1/2 EXTERIOR lines flow"
After all, 10,000 FDNY firefighters can't possibly be right... right?
-
-
Ben posted
Well, Mikey, if you're doing basic truck work and having the truckies multitask, then you don't need the "Vent Group" especially when you have three floors of fire already vented.And I explained (after the fact) that we use the term "vent group" for the trucks, and they vent/force doors/throw ladders/cut off utilities/searck/and openup walls and ceilings
You just assign the trucks as "Single Resources".my dept hasn't (as of yet) began using that term on the fireground
And, no, I don't think you need an additional unit to break every window, force every door, or make every point in a post.seems like it every once in a while
I don't have any blinders on about people operating differently than what I'm used to. I understand that you don't think NIMS is your Bible...it's not mine, either. However, if you're going to use the term "Vent Group" in a way that's confusing to anyone that understands plain English, you shouldn't get offended when someone questions you about it. Or...do you think sewing confusion makes large fireground operations more effective?And I believe I tried to explain what the vent group consists of in my Dept......and then you went on with some attempt at making more smart assed comments.....so, there ya have it
-
Permalink Reply by Jeff Cole on
-
Yeah I can see the disection of words going on here. Like the crowd control thing. Police do it, period. They understand the need, and I can request the area be expanded. That's it. Problem here with some of these scenario's (which ARE excellent tools for discussion) is that we have a broad range of operational differences. I approach these generically, rather than, say...include a tanker (tender) task-force if I didn't have a hydranted area. You need water. How ya get it is what you're used to dealing with.
I know of many, many departments that operate as SOP with using 2.5" handlines as interior operations, and that tactic is to try to prevent the job from going defensive. I beleive it is simply gpm vs. btu. Many of us have studied the therories of Andy Fredericks, for example, and applied it in the field, with excellent results. From actual tactical situations, to promotional examination scenarios, the "big line" has long been considered a viable, and much advised tool to use for interior fire attack.
However, I respect your right to opinion, and highly doubt your personal beliefs, although maybe different from mine, make you any less an educated, experienced firefighter, and your contributions are certainly well worth consideration and RESPECTFUL debate.
-
-
PLEASE......PLEASE show me 10,000 FDNY Firemen that will/would/do/or have taken a 2 1/2 inch in a building that is so far gone that masterstreams are being utilized.
I am SURE that I will be accused of misquoting you somehow...... I wrote this "But yes, I still stand by MY statement that if a building is so far gone that 2 1/2 lines are needed.....sending people INSIDE on thise lines is useless, rediculous ...and so on, just loop it around in the street and sit on it while the wagon pipes and ladderpipes and the 2 1/2 EXTERIOR lines flow"
And it APPEARS that you wrote this
"After all, 10,000 FDNY firefighters can't possibly be right... right?"
Sorry for my misunderstanding of you saying that 10,000 FDNY Firemen (I know you said (firefighters) can't possibly be right.....in going inside,with 2 1/2 inch lines, buildings that are so far gone that 2 1/2 inch handlines are needed along with wagon pipes (also called deck guns/deluge sets/masterstreams) and ladderpipes (elevated masterstreams) because I am sure that I am once again wrong
-
-
I won't show you that, because as we both know, they don't do it.
On the other hand, they take 2-1/2 lines inside for offensive attacks on a daily basis, because they understand that it's safer to use stream reach and additional water power instead of smaller lines and sticking their noses into the fire.
Once again, you only recognize two extremes when the reality is that there is middle ground where interior 2-1/2 lines are not only appropriate, but they're the situational best choice.
If your department chooses to essentially give the engine and the hose an annual pump test every time you guys pull that 600-foot 1-1/2 you seem to like so much, it's a department choice. If you like to pile more and more companies with 1-1/2 into fires that could be controlled with fewer firefighters with 2-1/2, it's a department choice.
That doesn't make it smart, and it doesn't mean that your department will always get away with it unharmed. The building doesn't have to be "far gone" to go interior with
2-1/2 and we both know that, too, even though you won't admit it.
You're applying artificial limitations to the line choice. The real world - and the FDNY - don't apply those limitations.
Enjoy video night.
-
-
If you only have one way to fight interior fires, you're going to have failures when your only tactical choice doesn't fit the situation. I like to have a range of weapons between "nose in the fire" and "surround and drown". Apparently, you don't.either you can get it from the inside, or you can't.....I know that might be too simple, but it seems pretty cut and dry to me (I am sure it is because of my infantile mind or something) but you EITHER have INTERIOR operations (while some operations have to be performed on the exterior like ladders/roof/ect.) OR you have EXTERIOR operations.......unless you are going to have people inside while you open up with masterstreams.....but that may be your way around me and my crazy tactical failures
It appears to me that using only small-caliber lines and pushing in as close as possible to every fire is a mindset with both you and your department from your posts here and from the video of the demonstration.you are free to assume from a video of a sprinkler demonstration how I operate, and how my dept operates
Your track record here is a refusal to admit that there is anything between the two and you dogmatically support your position. Dogma can get you killed. There are plenty of examples in the history of the U.S. Fire Service. "Those who do not learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them." Santayana.seriously, if refusing to enter a structure that is so far gone that large diameter hoselines and masterstreams are needed is going to get me killed....then that is a risk I am willing to take (seems to ME that would be LESS of a risk.....but the Omniscient One has spoken and what he says is law.....kinda like Bizzaro World in Superman)
I wouldn't have used a 2-1/2 for the demo. I would have used the stream reach of the 1-1/2 and moving the stream around to suppress the entire fire without entering the demonstration box. However, if someone can't do that, maybe the 2-1/2 would work for them.and I would have made sure I pointed the line up and to the left to put out the plastic.......kinda the same.....yet kinda different......but I WOULD NEVER HAVE USED A 2 1/2 INCH ON IT
Enjoy video night.
-
-
Confusing NIMS (a federal standard) with NFPA (a private organization) is, well, confused.
Having a committee member doesn't make the department compliant as you well know.
As for describing your department's way to do things, if you use a non-standard term, then you need to explain it or it will cause confusion. If it's not explained, people will ask for an explanation...and amazingly, that's what occurred.
If your department calls "truck work" a "Vent Group" on every fire, even when no ventilation is needed and you pound it here, that's more evidence of dogma, and dogma will eventually get someone killed.
And...whether you call it that or not, a company operating by itself is a "single resource".
A company split into two teams is two "single resources".
Two teams...hmmm, like splitting a single truck company into two teams, one searching and one throwing ladders...yanno, stuff like that?
© 2024 Created by Firefighter Nation WebChief.
Powered by
