The Social Network & Community JUST for Firefighters
Ten Minutes in the Street: "On-scene with a whole lot of Fire Showin"
You could see the glow blocks away, but you waited until you arrived on scene and transmitted a working fire. Actually, you’re words were something to the effect of……
Well anyways, you’ve arrived and you have Heavy Fire evident on numerous floors and extending. You have escalating exposure issues, a rapidly expanding and developing fire with what appears to be lots of fire load in a very old building. If that wasn’t enough, you’ve got the balance of the responding alarm assignment heading your way and fast. You are either the first-due engine company officer or the first-due command officer. (You pick)
In either case, You are the incident commander.
• The building is and L-Shaped structure, circa 1925, with a brick construction.
• You determine construction type
• It’s sized about 80 ft x 120 feet (excluding the L-extension).
• The building is four stories in height.
• It has been vacant for an extended period of time
• It was scheduled to undergo renovation into condominiums.
We’re going to focus our time in the street onto the areas of incident command, preparing for extended operations and developing an incident action plan (IAP).
Here are the simple things to start your tactical gears grinding;
• What is the main goal of your initial IAP?
• What needs to be determined First?
• What are the first series of Strategic Objectives and Assignments?
• What would be the first series of Tactical Level Assignments be?
• What are the realistic resource needs required for this incident?
• What’s your incident management organizational structure going to look like?
• Assuming the degree of fire present now upon your arrival, what do you expect the required fire flow to be sixty minutes from now?
• What are the safety issues that you’re planning for?
• What are you going to do about the exposures?
• When confronted with a fire of this magnitude, what do you think are some of the major considerations that a large scale fire might involve?
Ok, this may be a “typical” fire to you, or it might be one of those career incidents that only come once in a great while. In any event, you’re in the street, you are in charge and there are companies calling you requesting assignments. Oh, by the way, the neighbors are beginning to be drawn to your vehicle, all looking for an immediate answer and resources to keep their homes (exposures) from being part of this “Really Big Fire”. Hey, did you remember to put more ICS forms in the book before you left quarters?
Replies to This Discussion
-
Permalink Reply by Michael C. Harrison on
-
703
Different people have different opinions......just as in MY opinion crowd control should be a police matter
-
Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
-
Crowd control is a police matter...if this building is in a town with more than one or two cops on duty. Even if you're in a large city, crown control is still the fire chief's responsibility as incident commander even if the task is delegated to the police.
-
-
Michael,
No problem - it should be obvious when someone uses the term "Vent Group" for a group of firefighters it's about doing many other fireground tasks that don't involve ventilation...right? I can't believe I misunderstood your use of the term.
Are you sure you want to bring up Charleston and tactics after the current "hot news" about the career department in your profile? Maybe a standoff attack with a 2-1/2 would have prevented a firefighter injury at thebig boxcardboard box fire.
I'm just sayin'.
-
Permalink Reply by Jessica Swift on
-
now i am only goin into my second year in my career as a ff, but i will have to say i have not been on a scene with an aerial yet. im sure you can guess that i am also from a small town. all i know is that i have been on some fires where we have used an insane amount of water just on handlines alone. to me it seems that if you have a fire of this magnitude you would have to have a completely seperate tanker shuttle for the aerial. would i be correct in thinking this?
-
-
We will have to agree to disagree once again, all the jurisdictions I have operated in the police took care of crowd control (not thru delegation from the FD....but by the police doing their job on their own)
-
-
Ben, I don't care what is or is not obvious to you.....nor do I care if you understood or misunderstood my use of a term. I was responding to the original poster (but it once again appears that my response wasn't quite up to par with your thinking)
And I was just bringing up your "Go To" Charleston reference so you wouldn't have to waste time typing it......sorry for taking your thunder away.
And I could could go on and on about the completely and utterly disgraceful demonstration put on by the leadership during their dog and pony show.....yet that wouldn't change a thing about what happened ....a FAILURE from the top down.(NOR make it have ANYTHING to do with this thread)
So....trying to make me feel ashamed about the Dept. I work for didn't work.....but apparently I touched a nerve when I made the Charleston comment, so from now on I will let YOU make those comments....so your feelings don't get hurt.
P.S. even though I wasn't at thefiascodemonstration (as a matter of fact I wasn't working that day) I will offer this up to give your "zing" a little added punch....I was ALL three guys on the line, along with the Chief yanking on the line, along with the Chief of the Department.....and I was the person responsible for all the set-up (or complete lack of ) for the FD part of that demonstration. I am so ashamed that if I ever post again.....it will be after I ask your permission and make sure I agree with you 100%.....is that better? Ehhh, never mind...that sounds a little boring.....I'm just going to continue to post and wait for more disparaging remarks about me and/or my employer.
Wow.....how dreadful of me for posting MY opinions/views on this website after someone from my Dept. does something stupid (which apparently I am responsible for) OR for not checking with you before I post.
I'm just sayin'
-
-
Apparently your department doesn't believe in NIMS compliance or interoperability, then?
-
-
Well, since you brought Charleston into the discussion while blaming me for it (there's a disconnect from reality...) I apparently overstepped by bringing up your department using tactics for which you've advocated in previous threads here...even if it was a small demonstration fire.
I'll drive by the obvious double standard in that line of thought and just comment that apparently there are situations where it doesn't pay to just push in with small-caliber lines.
What was your term for 2-1/2 attack lines on the interior...Dangerous, Ridiculous...something like that? If the small-caliber lines don't work all that well on a 6 foot cube, then there are going to be times that they don't work all that well for interior attacks on large structures, either. I don't need to make any remarks to show the obvious there...the video takes care of that for anyone who sees it.
-
-
Oh, and the term "Vent Group" by definition, refers the the functional group that performs ventilation. Check out the NIMS I-100 terminology section for one of many sources.
I'm trying to figure out how much sense it makes to refer to a functional group by a function it isn't performing... based on NIMS, common sense, or whatever. Can anyone help me out with this one?
-
Permalink Reply by Jeff Cole on
-
2.5" lines are dangerous and rediculous used as interior handlines? Just the opposite. Departments that fail to train using handlines larger than those two room 150-180gpm handlines are dangerous. But I aint gettin' involved in the above shoving match. That just caught my eye, and is something I consider to be problematic in the fire service today.
Seems to be almost obvious it's an arson job. Regardless, it's going to take the entire building. We need to set collapse zones as a priority, and begin evacuations of the exposed residences. Depending upon the departments size and resources will determine how many additional alrms are struck, as well as maintaining coverage for the community, filling in and moving up companies. This is the obvious. Streets have to be shut down in a large area to facilitate water supply and LDH lays.
master streams of all types, but especially portable/ground monitors and aerial master streams will be required to cover all sides. Concentartion towards the most exposed properties first. Engine compaies should ideally be placed at the hydrants and pump through LDH to master streams. "A" side is already gone. Concentration of master streams on the "C" side should be established to attempt to hold that wall from failing, if possible. The same holds true for "B" side as well. Radiant heat, and collapse are most likely to take the exposures on this side.
If the first in engine and trucks can throw master streams on the 'A" side immediately, to slow the fire, and protect "B" side, it may buy time to set-up and protect the rear. We can expect long hose lays, and large demand on our water supply system. Also, flying brands and radiant heat will require individual companies assigned for this purpose. There looks to be fairly good access at all sides for aerial placement. It is doubtful we will stop this fire from traveling through the entire building. This will be a prolonged operation, and the roof will be lost, causing the ember problms. IF the wind conditions cooperate, and we have enough water to cover the building , allowing the roof to burn through will help us get to the fire, and possible hasten extinguishment. The reality is that we will no doubt be calling in a crane to dismantle the shell to help us do the final extinguishment.
Sectroing command as well as the usual support systems are obviously required. Our personnel should be operating well outside the collapse zones.
Logistically we will need housing, and shelter, food, and other services for displaced residents, and the relief of our crews.
-
-
Once again....I apologize personally to you for posting my opinion on this thread about the topic.
Now, I do not make department policy on sprinkler demonstrations....you would need to contact the Chief of the Department on that.
I stand by MY opinion of 2 1/2 being used as INTERIOR attacklines...useless, dangerous, and ridiculous if a building is that far gone that large caliber streams are needed...go defensive.
And as for the 6' cube that had so many BTU's that it overwhelmed an inch and a half.....the last time I watched the video, it appeared to me that it put out the room, but didn't get the plexiglass knocked down ( I know, I know.....you are going to quote me fireflows relating to 2 1/2 inch lines in relation to plexiglass , and all that good stuff) It just looks to me that a 2 1/2 not aimed at the plastic might not have extinguished it either.....GRANTED the box would have more than likely been blown across the lawn and into an occupied building during that operation.....but it is what it is....a dog and pony show to further someones agenda, turned into a complete and utter disgrace.
Just please explain to me how a 2 1/2 would have worked so much better.....and why you would have operated said 2 1/2 in this sprinkler demo
-
-
Oh, and the term "Vent Group" by definition, refers the the functional group that performs ventilation. Check out the NIMS I-100 terminology section for one of many sources.And if one of the truck companies happened to break a window in the rear...would that make you happy.
Oh and take the Blinders Off....the world will NOT stop spinning and fall off its axis if people operate differently than what YOU think is right.
And I am familiar with NIMS.....yet it is NOT my bible
I'm trying to figure out how much sense it makes to refer to a functional group by a function it isn't performing... based on NIMS, common sense, or whatever. Can anyone help me out with this one?Well....you posted earlier in the thread of searching the tenable parts of the building.....yet you had no "forcible entry group", no "ladder group" ....and to explain (even tho I am sure it won't make sense to you) ....someone in the "vent group" may need to force a door, slap a ladder, or pull someone out of a building....just as someone in the rescue group may ALSO meed to throw a ladder to perform their job (I know....he should call for the "ladder group leader" to send a ladder to him and place it in the window so he won't be accused of "freelancing" and have the NIMS Police come arrest him) ...did that help? (I'm sure it didn't since I explained it to you....but hey.....I'm here to help you)
A fireground is a fluid and dynamic area....and anyone that allows themselves to be hamstringed with a "thats what the book said" mentality is a fool in my eves (please do not make the foolish assumption that I am knocking books, studying, policys, standards, or accepted practices with my last statement)..
© 2024 Created by Firefighter Nation WebChief.
Powered by
