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STAND UP FOR THE HELP AT GROUND ZERO
Was anyone aware that the firefighter and the volunteers the worked at ground zero are dieing for cancer and other stomach and respatory problems and the government is not doing a fucking thing about it!!! what can we do??????
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Vic Silverfish on
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Ben, I'm gonna bust your balls a bit, so I'll try and tone it down:
"Last I checked"? You may want to check again. Just a few posts up I point out that Al Qaeda is Sunni, which is a different sect from Iran (Shia) and the Park51 guy (Sufi). To focus a little more, they are adherents to the Saudi Wahhabist movement which is an ultra-conservative brand of Islam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabi), so technically they are a small sect within a larger "brand" of Islam. Wahhabists consider all other branches of Islam apostates, and have killed an assload more Moslems over this than they have Westerners.
The analogy was more directed at your "I can't tell the difference" approach to the problem. There are internal rifts within Islam and the US had a HUGE opportunity to bring the Muslim world together after 9/11, instead we united them against us.
I'm saying it's not OK for Christians to plan terrorism, but when they do (and there is along history of Right-Wing Christian terrorism in America) we need to go after the bad guys who are doing bad things, not anyone who identifies themselves as Christian or right wing.
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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Vic,
Nice description, but none of that addresses my point.
It's pretty easy to tell the difference between Baptist, Catholic, Jewish, LDS, or Jehovah's Witness places of worship, since they put the signs right in front of the building. The U.S. mosques I've seen have signs identifying them as mosques, but none describe which sect operates that specific mosque.
It's not so easy to tell the difference between Islamic sects, especially in real life. They simply don't identify themselves that way to infidels - their label for non-Muslims, not mine.
I've said that we need to go after the bad guys, repeatedly.
The bottom line is that it's ridiculous to expect for non-Muslims to figure out which sect is which and which ones are peaceful, which ones support jihad, and which ones participate in jihad when very few of them will even explain their particular beliefs to outsiders.
Then there's the mistrust due to this explanation of three essential questions about Islam: I don't necessarily believe or disbelieve the claims in the video, but I have seen no evidence that disproves those claims.
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Ben - You owe me several beers for sitting through 9 minutes of that horsecrap. There’s a lot of things in this screed that you could also say about the Bible, but I guess it’s OK for the Bible but not the Koran (IOKFTBBNTK)
Example I: (I freeze-framed this to capture this bloke directly) - he accuses the Koran of regulating every aspect of life including "ritual worship, Transactions and contracts, morals and manners, beliefs, and punishments. Have you read Exodus, Leviticus, and Deuteronomy? IOKFTBBNTK
Example II: war – let’s stick with the Torah and crack open the Book of Numbers. The Midianites don’t make out too well, the men and women were all slaughtered, and the virgins carted off as spoils of war. There are numerous similar stories throughout the Old Testament. IOKFTBBNTK
Example III: the evangelical nature of Islam. You could say the same thing about Christianity. There are numerous passages about spreading the word, but I think the most beautiful is Luke 11:33 “No man, when he hath lighted a candle, putteth it in a secret place, neither under a bushel, but on a candlestick, that they which come in may see the light.” Spreading Christianity is sharing the light – IOKFTBBNTK.
I could go on...I’ll spare you.
If you want to know a bit about Islam, you should check out an unbiased source. The Koran is a bit of a read, so might I advise you to check the Wiki page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam.
In summary, there are 5 pillars of Islam, which, if you understand them, you have a pretty good grip on the whole religion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam#Five_Pillars. To save you the jump, they are – faith, prayer, fasting during Ramadan, charity and the Hajj (pilgrimage to Mecca.) Boring church-crap. Islam is just as dull as any other religion.
Jihad is another tenant of Islam – often called the sixth pillar. It can mean anything ranging from evangelism, defence of Islam, offensive attack of non-believers, or the inner struggle for spiritual purity. Every Moslem I know sees it as the inner struggle but you can see where this can be corrupted by those with an agenda.
I’d add one more point: I’m not quite sure what you mean about identifying Moslems and Mosques that advocate terrorism. Is this an excuse to treat all Moslems as potential criminals? Are there Catholic Churches that have a sign out front saying “Paedophile priest” or Protestant ones with a “we murder doctors” sign? That’s madness. If anything, American Moslems tend to rat these guys out, as they create trouble for the whole community. You see that in Australia quite often, when a radical Imam starts speaking, the other clerics all jump on him because they don’t want the entire faith tarred with that radical brush.
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Vic,
You didn't refute a single thing in the video. You attacked other religions as supposedly sharing some of the same traits, but there are some huge differences. Attacking Christianity does nothing to refute the charges in the video.
Here are a couple of examples: The "evangelical" nature of Christianity as it occurs today is based upon education and persuasion. That's not the same kind of evangelism that the video states is used by Islam. "Not hiding the light" is a far, far cry from forcible conversion.
Your 5 Pillars of Islam argument is a red herring. Those are not the ONLY tenets of Islam, per the video, nor is the supposed 6th pillar you discuss. That argument is diversionary, and it specifically ducks the points made in the video.
The book of Leviticus says nothing to advocate either Jews or Christians attacking members of other religions or cultures - that story is simply a record of ancient history. That's another diversion that doesn't address the accusations made in the video.
You also ducked the most important point - taqqiya. The Jewish and Christian religions value honesty as outlined in the Ten Commandments - "Thou shalt not bear false witness..." That is diametrically opposed to taqqiya.
There were other things in the video that you didn't address, but the above will do for now.
And here's a straw man you brought into this "Is this an excuse to treat all Moslems as potential criminals?" I didn't say that, not did I even hint at it. The onus of explanation is on the culture that wishes to be understood. I don't treat all Muslims as potential criminals.
Your claims of IOKFTBBNTK are bogus, because they're apples to oranges comparisons.
Here's another one of your unbalenced arguments - you treat pedophile priests as if it were the equivalent of jihadist murder when it's not even close. You treat the murder of doctors by anti-abortionists as equivalent to the murder of almost 3,000 others in a single attack. Two or three isolated murders of doctors are not in the same league as the 9/11 religiously-motivated mass murder.
"If anything, American Moslems tend to rat these guys out, as they create trouble for the whole community." Really? How about you show some evidence?
And Vic, you missed the most important point in this entire debate. Cultural understanding MUST be taught, not demanded. I've seen no great effort to educate the rest of us from any Muslim, with the possible exception of Shareef...and he didn't respond to several of my direct questions.
If someone from another religion, culture, or whatever wants others to understand them, then they need to make the effort to educate the others. That's something that you can't do for them - unless you're practicing taqqiya here.
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"I’d add one more point: I’m not quite sure what you mean about identifying Moslems and Mosques that advocate terrorism. Is this an excuse to treat all Moslems as potential criminals?"
I re-read this just to make sure, and you put two, two, two logical fallacies in one in that statement.
The last sentence is a straw man, for the reasons I stated above. You also imply a false dilemma; asking for a way to differentiate peaceful Muslims from Muslim terrorists has other interpretations than accusing them all of being terrorists - namely the one I stated.
Your implication that one either accepts all Muslims as non-terrorists or that one thinks all Muslims are terrorists is the false dilemma. The first is obviously not accurate, and the second is equally inaccurate, at least for me.
And don't tell me that you didn't say it and that you really didn't imply it. Your implication is obvious, and the fact that you asked it in the form of a Jeopardy question doesn't change that.
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