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RIT/RIC and hoselines
So RIT?RIC and HOSE LINES
SITREP
Recent reported structure fire in my first due, occupants report smoke and flames showing from hot water heater/ furnace, reports all occupants out of residence. Ariving engine reports nothing showing from exterior smell of smoke comming from open front door upon 360. has 2 ff pull 1 3/4 lead to front door. Second due engine to water supply and two ff to RIT.
Now every class I have gone thru tells me RIT/RIC in it self does not have a hose line. Thats what back up crews are for right?
Needless to say fire was out upon investigation from attack team with damage only to the furnace and duct work.
What are your thoughts on RIT/RIC and hose lines? What are your SOP/SOG in this reguard?
Sorry for crappy sentance structure and choppy paragraphs trying to do this from my phone.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by 55 TRUCK on
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RIT does not need to be established prior to crews making entry. First off the people we are sworn to protect are the priority, I know there is this we are more important than them attitude in a lot of departments. Now before you spit out a bunch of BS... I am not saying to just throw yourself into a inferno. I am saying that the people we serve don't have the protective gear and training we do. Here is another news flash for you....Firefighting is dangerous. Secondly, NFPA is a bunch of suggestions not laws. OSHA is not followed by every state and city. Fire Departments across this country all fight fire a little diffrently have diffrent SOPs, SOGs etc.
If you are in a Department that has the manpower to set up RIT on the initial Alarm then great. If not set it up with a requested or mutual aid co. Every member should be trained in RIT operations. If you want your RIT to have a line fine. To me this sounds like a way to slow down the RIT team and is not needed. Why? Well because we have a attack line, Backup line, Exposure line,Extension line,etc. Plenty of lines to take care of the fire. Firefighting operations do not stop when a MAYDAY is called. The interior crews can help you find the firemen and in most cases help them out.
AJ, What department in Florida do you work for?
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Permalink Reply by AJ Zuccarelli on
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Amen 55 Truck. I tossed OSHA/NFPA verbiage out because it's what we will get hoisted by, God forbid something goes wrong. We abide by it, but we make it work for us, and are fairly lucky to have units close enough to each other. Check your messages btw.
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Their job? To make sure if we get in trouble, it's as minimal as possible. Force secondary means of egress, throw ladders, scout the building, listen to the radio, know where crews are operating, know where the fire is, know where the danger is. RIT isn't getting you out if you are truly down and out. Phoenix FD, Brett Tarver. That was a HUGE wake up call for the industry.
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Permalink Reply by Don Catenacci on
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Actually 55 Truck you are at least partially worng about NFPA not being law. Parts of it most certainly are in Wisconsin having been adopted by Administrative Code in SPS 330. I would be hard pressed to believe that Wisconsin is the only state or jurisdiction to have adopted at least part of NFPA as state or local law.
Further good luck defending yourself in court against lawyers well versed in the NFPA standards. Ignorance of or not using NFPA certainly didn't keep Alan Baird out of prison.
None of the departments I am currently on, nor my former career FD waited to initiate fire attack or rescues because no RIT was established. RIT was usually either a later arriving local unit or a mutual aid unit.
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We don't wait to set up RIT......As for the NFPA Luckily I don't live in Wisconsin.
Don, are you kidding? Alan Baird would of gone to prison even if NFPA didn't exist.
The guy lit a fire in a old farm house on the first floor, not straw or wood pallets, he lit a couch. I don't know how long he was in the fire service...But that is basic fire science a fresh Probie here could tell you what would happen if you set a couch on fire in that structure.
Show me a case where a firemen was convicted by a lawyer using NFPA, that involved an actual working fire, not training. A actual working incident.
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Permalink Reply by Zachary Wolf on
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Ok, just to clarify for everyone involved in the convo. My sentance structure wasn't the best becuase I was posting from my phone using swipe and it has been retarded over the last few weeks.
The scenario posted was a little harder then it may seem. My two firefighters couldnt make entry due to we were a 4 man engine crew that night with 4 firefighters and an emt. One firefighter being the pump operator, myself as IC and our other two firefighters being the attack team. Our EMS only member set up a rehab as soon as we arrived. Second Due engine company arrived as first attack line was being pulled. I had them establish a water supply from the hydrant that was 2 houses down on the corner, then moving to rit and back up crew since they were a 5 man company. giving me their crew leader as the safety officer. 2 to rit and 2 to back up crew. So, While I agree that it seemed from my original posting that I had waited until RIT/RIC/FAST was established to make entry, but at the same time I had to wait for 2 in 2 out to be able to send crews interior.
Hope this clarifys some of your misunderstandings.
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Permalink Reply by captnjak on
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RIT isn't getting you out if you are truly down and out? Then why even bother with it?
RIT has been sucessful many times in rescuing overcome firefighters. When it works we probably don't hear much about it. When it doesn't work we go to funerals.
The fire you referred to in Phoenix was a very large fire in a very large commercial structure. IMO, it is an extreme example. I am not saying that successful rescues are easy. They require a lot of time and manpower.
FF Tarver was successfully located by a rescue team while he was still standing. They became separated. He was located by another member subsequent to this. They were both out of air; one made it out and one did not. We should not use the death of this brother as a reason to give up on RIT.
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55 TRUCK...
We don't wait to set up RIT.....
Good for you. Not everyone has those resources and rather than stand outside being RIT while no suppression or search is going on we go to work and RIT is established when the later arriving companies get to the scene.
.As for the NFPA Luckily I don't live in Wisconsin.
Yeah, because EVERYTHING NFPA has done has been horrible for the fire service. Some dumbasses would still be wearing metal Senator helmets and cotton duck coats with demand valve scba if it weren't for NFPA standards. If you don't like what they do get on a committee and work to effect change. But it is a fact sitting in the firehouse bitching is a lot easier than actually doing something to change what you don't like. Frankly, I think WE are lucky you don't live in Wisconsin.
Don, are you kidding? Alan Baird would of gone to prison even if NFPA didn't exist.
Probably, but the prosecution jammed NFPA 1403 so far down his throat it is amazzing he didn't suffocate in the courtroom. You do know NFPA 1403 is the live fire training standard right?
The guy lit a fire in a old farm house on the first floor, not straw or wood pallets, he lit a couch. I don't know how long he was in the fire service...But that is basic fire science a fresh Probie here could tell you what would happen if you set a couch on fire in that structure.
Well at least we can agree that what he did was stupid, dangerous, and failed to meet multiple 1403 standards.
Show me a case where a firemen was convicted by a lawyer using NFPA, that involved an actual working fire, not training. A actual working incident.
I don't know of any so it would take research. But I am going to follow the laws of my state to the best of my ability and violating the NFPA standards adopted in SPS330 is not to any fire departments advantage and i would question the sanity of any chief or community that allowed it to happen.
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GEEZUS AJ, you are that ignorant. Thanks for clarifying it.
If you honestly believe that RIT is essentially useles then advocate for your fire department to stop wasting money and training time on RIT procedures.
By the way, using Brett Tarver as a reason for not using RIT is kind of ludicrous since that incident more or less led to the RIT training revolution. The biggest thing that came out of that tragic incident is the reality that most often RIT is understaffed for the task.
Please stay out of Wisconsin where we believe in RIT and its possibilities to save firefighter's lives.
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2 in 2 out goes right out the window if there are known immediate rescues to be made.
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Don
IFD does follow certain NFPA guidlines. We just don't have them has laws.
By the way. I do like your Cheeses.
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Permalink Reply by Derek J Sinesi on
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I like my chances much better knowing if i go down we have guys trained and ready to go as a RIT team. I will keep training and push all our guys to take this training.
If there is a rescue to be made 2 in 2 out goes out the window.
Zachary, Isn't your pump operator also a firefighter? Assuming he is qualified and you had him,you and 2 others plus a EMT then i'm confused. You as IC should be outside. This lets you send the other 2 in while you and the pump operator are out. This gives you the 2 in 2 out that you seem to be more worried about. I would not have hesitated a bit to go to work in this case you have giving. But i don't know your crew ;mine i do.
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