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RIT or On Deck
Hi All, I just came back from an officers meeting and we were told we are switching from RIT to On Deck for fire ground operatons. We have done RIT for the last seven years. What are your feelings on the On Deck approach. We were given just the basics on it with more training to follow.
Paul
Paul
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Bull on
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Wow Ive never heard of the on deck method. Sounds like a great idea if used properly. and personnal are trained for it. It would take the board um out of doing just RIT, plus as others say when you've been inside you had an idea of the layout. plus it keeps people from getting into trouble by using the ten min rule. I believe this would require alot more personnal and a real orginized command structure. But with proper training and disipline it could work. thanx for the info very interesting.
Bull
Captain Oklahoma VFD
Pennsylvania
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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on
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A question about the timeline here - in most cases, if you're only 15 minutes into the incident, no crew that has been inside for even a 10-minute work period will be rotated, geared back up, and in position to act as RIT if a MAYDAY is called that early into the incident.
An additional point...if the On Deck crew has "already been on an attack crew" why didn't they just extinguish the fire before they went to rehab? On the vast majority of working fires, that's what happens. Ben Waller
Ben,
Just thought I'd give a little more perspective here. I can only speak for our operations and can't talk for other departments. You're right if the attack crew is only inside for 10 minutes, the intial RIT crew still goes in blind. That is why it is paramount that that intial crew takes care of the initial RIT setup, such as utility control, staging, ladder placement, 360 for egress or entry points and so forth. They won't have the benefit of having already been inside, so that intial RIT crew has a much greater responsibility to do the intial setup.
How we operate is if the attack crew comes out, they change bottles and take over for RIT, the backup crew becomes attack and RIT becomes backup and the intial attack becomes RIT. Like any other assignment a turnover takes place. Now more often than not there will not be a need for RIT and with the intial crew already taking care of much of the assignment, it gives the attack crew a chance to catch their breath. In the past it was not uncommon for us to change out bottles 2 or 3 times before going rehab. Just because you come out, doesn't mean you need rehab. In the event RIT is needed then the attack crew does have an advantage of having already been in to be RIT. However, if rehab is needed after one bottle due to the weather, elements and so forth, it is up to the IC to request additional crews.
Also, we do have an extensive SOP setup in the event of a MAYDAY, much from our lessons learned. The key was involving dispatch, that much of the operation is in place for them to do automatically so the IC doesn't have to request resources. For us if a MAYDAY happens today, dispatch automatically sends the next higher alarm, notifies all stations that a MAYDAY has been declared and notifies all the hospitals.
As for why the attack crew just didn't extinguish the fire before leaving, is quite a broad question. It depends entirely on situations. Sometimes you don't find the fire right away to knock it down, the fire can spread to other areas, search may be a priority and so forth. There is so much that can cause a MAYDAY than just the fire. A FF could be low on air and disorientated, caught in wires, fall through floor, ceiling collapse, lost and seperated from crew and so forth. Any of which can occur at any time whether the fire is out or not, in fact much of the challenges are the result of smoke, moreso than fire. You can have a small hidden, smoldering fire that smokes the structure up something fierce. Sometimes the MAYDAY is called when the fire is out. At the NFA a LT from Texas recounted his story of having to call a MAYDAY. He became disorientated and low on air AFTER the fire was out. If anything that should be a lesson to all of us, because when the beast is tamed, we do let our guard down more easily, but we should know a MAYDAY can occur at any time.
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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John,
Your initial comments go to the heart of the matter in the "Active RIT" vs. "Passive RIT" debate.
If you use the initial RIT actively for utility control, ladders, opening Side C, etc. the two downsides are that they're not going to be as fresh if a MAYDAY is called, and that they likely won't be in an advantageous position to start the MAYDAY response, since they probably won't be near the RIT gear cache and might not be in a position to immediately follow hoselines to the attack crews. Even a well-conditioned RIT crew is going to have an accelerated heart and respiratory rate from throwing ladders, etc., so they'll use their SCBA air faster upon entry compared to a passive RIT.
The disadvantages of passive RIT are that the crew's attention span can wander, they might become mentally disengaged, and RIT becomes a scutwork assignment. They also haven't scouted a 360 around the building.
I believe that a lot of what is spelled out in active RIT SOGs is simply what we used to call "Truck Work" when my career began. I prefer passive RIT that is conserving energy, in contact with Command, and staged with their gear cache near their most likely route of ingress if a MAYDAY is called. The utilities, opening up Side C, laddering, etc. is simply a truck work assignment for other companies. Active RIT has basically been developed as a compromise between the reduced manpower most fire departments face combined with the same number of jobs to do plus the RIT and Safety Officer assignments we didn't use to have in the 1970's.
My point about just extinguishing the fire is that most fires are not that hard to find. The ones that are can generally be found with a thermal imager. The average fire in the U.S. today is in a lightweight construction single-family dwelling. If you're rotating crews every 10 minutes and don't have the fire extinguished within 2 entry cycles, it's probably time to go defensive. 20 minutes of fire will dismantle just about any truss system there is, 20 minutes of heat, smoke, and gases will kill any unprotected civilian who may have been inside, and 20 minutes of unextinguished fire will permenantly ruin any contents. That equals "nothing left to save" in those situations.
Defensive fires greatly simplify the RIT equation, too.
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Ben,
I never heard of the active or passive RIT concept, so going by your definitions I would have to say active RIT is the only way to go. Reason number one is there really are not enough personnel on a fireground today to just have a crew standing by just waiting for a called MAYDAY, sure they may be fresh, but that doesn't mean they are being effectively used. Having a crew able to see the whole scene, knowing where secondary egress points are, placing ladders and so forth only helps out in the event something does happen. Since the RIT team is doing outside work, like ladder placement and utility control there is no reason to be on air. Personally speaking here, if you are that winded throwing a ladder that you really need to be absolutely fresh for a MAYDAY, then you already failed. Fitness and ability to do the job is paramount and if a MAYDAY is called after you threw a ladder should not impair any FF. If it does, then there are some definate issues when it comes to preparation before a fire, mainly fitness.
As for standing by the gear cache and command ready to follow hoselines, that doesn't ensure the best point of entry is noted, the best chance for egress is noted and the best picture to follow the chances in the incident is noted. Our RIT operations call for RIT to stage at the corners so there is a visual contact with each RIT member and they are able to watch changing conditions that may not be apparent to command or even other crews. Each RIT member has a radio and can monitor the progress of the incident and if a MAYDAY is called on the second floor, the best access point may be a ladder already up vs following a hoseline.
Fires do tend to occur in lightweight construction and if a fire can be extinguished quickly great. However, just because the fire is knocked down there is still overhaul and there can be potential for the fire to flare back up, or even crews getting disorientated, trapped and so forth, so there is potential for rotating crews, despite a fire being knocked down quickly. Just because the fire is out doesn't mean the potential for a MAYDAY is also gone, an attack crew can knock the fire down, get out, change bottles and assume RIT and other crews get in, do vent, overhaul and so forth.
In our situation there was absolutely NO just following the hoseline. The attack team went in through the front door and made their way to the basement. A second crew went in to do a search, because a neighbor said people were still at home. The floor collapsed beneath the search team and one fell one way, one went the other. The floor breaking created a Backdraft and every window broke out when the floor collapsed. The amount of fire coming from the front door was immense, there was absolutely NO way we were going in through the front door. As it was the backup team started flowing water and started to move in, their LT stopped them for a brief few seconds and they noticed the huge hole the search team went through, had they gone in, they would have also fell through the floor.
As it was from the RIT perspective a side access door was quickly located and went in. The area I encountered was absolute blackness and extreme heat. Instead of going in through the house and blackness, we saw the door to the right went to the garage and here in Wisconsin we have basements, with many newer homes having a second basement access through the garage. That's where we went in. We made several entries and the second due companies also made several entries, but command had to call people out so we wouldn't lose anymore FF's.
Part of our lessons learned was how to use RIT more effectively on the fireground and that is why we throw ladders, do utility control, and look for secondary egress and entry points. Monitoring the incident from different views we are more ready to have a better idea of where to go. In our situation the house looked like a typical 3 bedroom ranch from the street side. Actually getting on scene the house was immense and a completely different look from the back. Had we as a RIT team had some more time to do a 360 and get things set up and so forth, we would have know exactly where the secondary basement stairs were, a better access point and so forth. Would the outcome have been the same? I don't know, coulda, woulda, shoulda, however what we did identify were issues that were never addressed in other lessons learned and we have definately become more progressive. Every individual on the dept went through extensive MAYDAY and self rescue training and we do do a much better job today than before we lost Lt Wolff.
I'm not bashing any different ideas out there and won't pass judgements on how other departments do things. I can only speak from our lessons learned, my perspective and what people can learn from us. There will always be a debate and differing ideas, but from my perspective and opinion, there is no other way to do RIT, than as an active RIT.
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I absolutely agree with the importance of MAYDAY training. We learned a lot from our incident and learned to share those lessons learned to others. We have done some very good and very simple training that didn't involve much at all. One of those was just to call a MAYDAY, we had FF's go through a confined space trailer, on air and would come to different scenarios posted on the wall. You had to decipher if this was a MAYDAY or emergency traffic message and call it. What was learned was the best way to place a mic, how to speak and so forth and it was different listening to the calls come in and how they sound on the other end of a transmission.
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John,
I'm not sure that you understood exactly what I was discussing. Here's what I said about active RIT...
"Even a well-conditioned RIT crew is going to have an accelerated heart and respiratory rate from throwing ladders, etc., so they'll use their SCBA air faster upon entry compared to a passive RIT."
I'm not talking about a RIT team that's so out of shape that they can't do the job. I'm also not advocating them using their SCBA air - in fact I'm an advocate of not masking up until just before IDLH entry, no matter what the assignment. A check of my responses to the "Masking up in the rig" thread a couple of weeks ago will explain my stance pretty well.
I'm talking about a team of physically fit firefighters who are going to expend energy carrying and throwing ladders, forcing doors, and other preventative RIT activities outside of the structure with their SCBA mask hanging from the neck strap. Those activities - as with any other physical activity - are work. Work gets your heart rate and respiratory rate up and increases the cellular oxygen demand in your muscles. If your RIT team suddenly has to mask up in response to a MAYDAY, they are going to use their SCBA air faster than if the same team had been used as a passive RIT. I'm not passing a value judgement here - just discussing the trade-offs between the two philosophies.
If the RIT team is forcing doors on Side C, do they carry the entire RIT gear cache with them?
If they are split - some forcing Side C and some laddering Division 2, who carries the RIT gear cache?
If the team is staged at the corners, which one carries the RIT gear cache, or do you split the RIT team and each sub-team carries it's own RIT gear?
Once again, I'm sorry for your department's loss and your efforts to make something positive come of it.
I also understand your point about the possibility that MAYDAYs can occur at any time, but the vast majority of them occur in the first 20 minutes of the incident and prior to fire knockdown.
Regards,
Ben
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Permalink Reply by Smoke Eater on
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RIT stands for Rapid Intervention Team. Sometimes called RIC or Rapid Intervention Crew. These are firefighters who are sent into a structure or any time a firefighter or group of firefighters get lost or trapped or low on air. They are basically there to get you out of trouble when the $#!t hits the fan. As far as the on deck approach goes, that's a new one to me. If you have heard of the 2 in 2 out rule, this pretty much sounds like a new name for it to me.
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Permalink Reply by Wolfy Lang on
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Bad thing... never heard of it...
Good thing... see above...
Will have to search it out to find out more... RIC or RIT is synonimous with the FD... New generation thing??
WIll keep watching to see what your responses are....
Peace and Fair Journeys
Wolfy
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Hey John I just have one question.... I read where you would rather use the active RIT vs. the passive due to manpower constraints. My question is, if you are a volunteer dept., why not call for a mutual aid engine crew and assign them as the passive RIT team? If fulltime then just request another engine crew to respond and assign them as RIT. Theoretically that would give you the manpower to cover the RIT assignment. I know if I got in trouble I would definately want a fresh crew comming in to get me out. I am sorry to hear about your loss. And I'm extatic that you guys are doing a much better job.
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Permalink Reply by Paul Everson on
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I have been following this post and I have to say I have learned alot a BIG THANK YOU TO ALL!!! I started planning a mayday drill for my crew at work yesterday.
Paul
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Ben,
Sure you can get a little winded throwing ladders, the issue is that the pure adreneline rush and the emotions going through one's head when a MAYDAY is declared does also take a toll on air consumption. Thing is that throwing some ladders in itself should not make a huge difference in the amount of air consumed.
As for the gear cache, a crew just has to be smart with what they take. I have heard of dept setting aside saws and jaws and so forth. We use the PLAN acronym for a MAYDAY, person, location, action (event) and needs. If a FF is just disorientated and lost, you don't need a ton of tools. The primary thing we bring in from our cache is is our RIT pack and air. Our pack consists of an hour bottle of air, wire cutters, search rope and lights. Other tools taken in are a set of irons and whatever other tool the member has with them. (every FF should get off the rig with a tool) Air is most important and getting to the person and getting them air is paramount, needs can be addressed by the RIT crew and have other items taken in as needed.
If we are at the corners and a MAYDAY is called you determine the entry point you are going to take and go from there. If our stuff is staged on the "A" side and the best entry point is on the "C" side the person closest drags it over. Some other stuff we may stage would be an attic ladder, saw, and SKED stretcher, we don't have a ton of tools in the cache. We also have the next alarm automatically struck when a MAYDAY is called and will get people coming in to assist. While your 20 minutes for an incident remains true, the other fact is it takes more than just 4 people to do a successful rescue.
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Actually it is not about manpower constraints for the RIT team. We show up with pretty much the NFPA recommendation of 18 personnel. We are a career dept with 4 man engines, 3 man truck, and 2 on a rescue (ambulance) and a battalion chief. A fire alarm assignment is 3 pumps, a truck , rescue and batt, with the 3rd in pump being the RIT team.
First in pump is fire attack, second in is backup, truck does vent or search depending upon the call, rescue does vent or search depending on call, batt is command. Each rig has a RIT pack on it and each truck carries the RIT cache, it is just a matter of taking it out of the compartment and staging it. The RIT team can place a ladder or two and can shut the gas off, the RIT officer would do a 360. After initial placement the RIT team stages at the corners (depending on structure size).
The majority of our fire calls we get all rigs on scene very close in time proximity, so while the truck may be laddering for roof ops, rescue gearing for search, attack stretching a line, water supply being obtained, it takes a matter of seconds for the RIT crew to throw some ladders.
If you are referring to the use of rotating crews around, I think that is just better because a crew has already been in and has an understanding of the layout in the event a MAYDAY is called. In the past we kept the same RIT team idle while we sent the attack crew back in up to 3 bottles. While the RIT team is fresh, what are we doing with the rest of the crews, increasing that factor something could go wrong. If the scene looks as though more people may be needed another alarm is struck and rehab is set up, so then a team will go to rehab and when out may get assigned RIT etc. Rotating crews also helps to keep complacency to a minimum and keeps a proactive approach.
I can really understand the concept of keeping RIT fresh, I really can, but the reality of it it is going to take more personnel to perfom the RIT functions than what you have on hand. I'm not busting anyone who may want to keep a passive approach, I prefer the active RIT and see the benefits more of that than a passive one.
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