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Pump Operations
Should the pump operator stay at the engine or wander around the scene? I'm asking because one of our people has a habbit of setting the engine and walking of. We are a volunteer department and have two engines with the computer operated pump. Supposedly set your pressure and watch. We lost prime momentarily the other day and he was at the rear of the engine away from the panel(top mount). Seems that if you are not at the pump when something happens you stand a good chance of either screwing up a pump or getting someone hurt. This is why we have the top mount so the operator can watch the fireground.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Spanner 122 on
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I think you already know the answer to this question and were just looking for someone to back up your thoughts, that's good. I would take this to the firefighter in question, or to a peer... if that does not happen, perhaps suggest the duties of the pump operator for a training night... might do everyone some good after seeing this guy not attending to his duties properly.
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Permalink Reply by Jeff Betz on
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It's kind of humorous how on page 1 and 2 (for the most part) of this thread, a person should be chasitsed, stoned, and left for dead if the left the panel AT ALL.
Then, on pages 3 and 4 (for the most part) some folks finally got us back into reality (thank you!). A pump operator has an important job no doubt, but please, it does require more than babysitting a pump from start to finish while others on scene bust their a**.
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Permalink Reply by Jenny Holderby on
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Maybe I should have phrased it a little differently and said that the pump operator stays with the apparatus not on the pump pannel. Every pump operator should be able to multi-task but he should be WITH the apparatus in case something goes down with the truck. We know any number of things can happen from a mechanical failure of the truck to a busted hose feeding the supply to an obstruction of some sort hitting the pump rotors.
If he's behind the house, he isn't going to see or hear when something happens and there is no water in the hoses.
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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Jenny,
Are you saying that the pump operator should stay with the engine while the only two other firefighters conduct an interior attack on a working fire, no matter what?
If that's the case, what you're saying is that we should intentionally subject the interior crew to unnecessary risk by avoiding ventilation that we know we need right now so that we will be prepared for a pump emergency that probably won't happen a few minutes from now.
If there's a mechanical failure, that's generally a hours-to-days repair, so it doesn't matter if the operator is near the pump or not. If the supply line breaks, the pump operator won't be able to replace the blown section without shutting down the hydrant or relay pumper. If an obstruction hits the pump rotors, the pump is out of service until it's shut down and back-flushed. In any of these cases, the interior attack crew is bailing out without water.
In the situation I described, the best place the pump operator can be is behind the house performing outside vent, because ventilation will contribute to a quicker knockdown and better interior conditions for the hose team. Standing around the engine waiting for the pump to break contributes nothing to the attack.
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Craig,
In my department, if the 1st-due engine establishes its own water supply, then the 2nd and 3rd-due drivers normally dress out and report to Command as an extra team. They can take an additional line inside, perform outside vent, beef up RIT, throw ladders, protect exposures, or any other task that can be performed by a two-firefighter team.
We even carry extra Passport helmet fronts that identify the teams made up from firefighters from differnet companies so that they fit neatly into the accountability system.
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Sorry, I didn't see a senario that requires the pump guy to do ventilation.
IF there is a mechanical failure or the hose busts then the pump operator is going to sound the alarm for the crews to bail out because they have no water and shut the truck down or replace the hose. He uses the air horn and the radio to signal them. If something happens with the engine, like a broken belt or a busted radiator hose then he is going to get them out & shut down ASAP to save that truck as much as possible from further damage like an engine locking up.
Sometimes sh*t happens & pumps go down, engines go down. They are pieces of machinery.
If something is lodged in an impeller that can be fixed fairly easily but if it sits there grinding getting hotter & hotter, the rest of the pump cost a lot more to fix. Pumps are very expensive to have repaired or replaced. You can't fight fire with a broken pump period so somebody better be telling them they have no water. The hose is probably still going to "feel" like it is charged but opening a line you are expecting to have pressure and having none is really bad business. Somebody is going to be really po'd if that happens and the pump operator was the guy responsible for that.
Often the pump operator is also the IC & that works too but he is still going to keep an eye on his truck and the rest of the operation at the same time.
I guess we must really do things differently here because I didn't know that the pump operators function was to stand around waiting for the pump to break. My pump operator is helping with air supplies or getting equipment off the truck like ladders & pike poles, or setting up lights. He may be helping to set up vent fans or generators or getting the TIC ready if we need it. The pump operator is responsible for other things besides the "pump" like water operations in general. He will be doing several different things at one time. BUT in my world the pump operator doesn't go trapsing all over the fire scene unless he is requested by the IC to do something else and that is going to be quick. He is most likely the one responsible for radio communications to dispatch and other arriving units or a number of other things and is responsible for all the equipment on that truck.
If a second line is pulled, the pressure needs bumped up to compensate for that. Who's going to go look for the pump operator to have him charge that line & make the adjustments?
We don't always have fire hydrants to feed water to the trucks so the pump operator has to monitor the water supply. If more water hasn't gotten there by the time all the red lights start flashing, again, he is going to sound the alarm BEFORE they run completely out of water giving them time to get out while they still have some water in case they have to use it to fight their way out. When a tanker gets there he is going to get it set up to fill his tank & set up a dump tank if that is necessary. (we rarely have to shut down because of water but it has happened)
Yup, if something hits the impellers or there is a mechanical malfunction, that truck is probably going to be down for a while and we will see what we can do about it when the fire is out. In the mean time, we still have to fight fire & we need an engine with a water supply. If we are lucky we won't have to physically move the truck out of the way. There is probably a second engine sitting close by that one of the guys fighting the fire has driven to the scene that can be moved in & set up. The pump operator is the person who is going to do that.
I didn't see anything about (the other) two fire fighters. On our Volly dept if we only have 3 guys, then there is probably a whole lot of things that are going to change. For one thing we are going to call for Mutual aid if we haven't already. There is rarely a time when we only have 3 guys in which case the pump operator may do other duties until someone else gets there.
I must have been taught differently because I was always told that the pump operator is responsible for his truck and keeping water to his firefighters and he can't do that if he isn't with his truck.
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Permalink Reply by Chief 29 on
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I must agree with you Jenny. As far as multitasking for an operator to me that means, transmitting and or relaying radio communications, Advising IC of his/her water situation and what he/she needs so that a sufficient supply can be set up, preparing for additional devices to be supplied by their truck such as supplying a ladder pipe if needed, water curtain etc. and also setting up for and getting ready to be supplied whether its by another engine in a relay, a tanker for nursing, or for some who have them a hydrant. Most importantly letting the crews in service with the line or lines off his/her truck know what their water situation is.
In my department it is very important that the operator stay close to or at the panel (hence the headset with a ten foot cord) The cord will allow them to go from the panel to either end of the truck. We use CAFS so there is quite a bit more communication between hose line crews and the operator letting them know if they need the solution dried out or wetter.
I spent the better part of thirteen years operating. Not that is a lot to some but I do know a little bit of how it's done and what my duties were when I was at the controls. Using the excuse that "I was setting up lighting " would be completely unacceptable when something goes wrong and a guy on the line gets hurt or worse. A good operator will have his light towers up and on before the line is even flaked out. This I know because I've been there done that.
In ending if you want the privilege of driving then be a driver/operator, chauffeur what ever you want to call it. If you want to wander around and do other peoples duties or just nose poke than do that. Let the operating to some one who has enough self control and is responsible enough to remain with the panel/engine.
Remember training gives knowledge, knowledge breeds safety, so train often and stay safe!
Have a happy holiday season.
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Permalink Reply by Engineer k7 on
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By no means should they leave the truck while the pump is engaged. An engineer/ driver does not leave the truck from the time he or she engages the pump til they disengage the pump, plain and simple. Unless they are STUPID!!!!!
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Jenny,
What I'm talking about is restricted to an initial attack with a 3-firefighter engine company when no other units are on the scene, and using the pump operator for outside vent doesn't mean that the operator is going to stand in the back yard and marvel at the wonders of combustion for a long time. He's going to vent the rear window(s), watch for a short time to ensure that the ventilation is effective, and then go back to the pump panel.
In the situation I'm talking about, no other firefighters are on the scene, so there's no need to worry about tankers, a second attack line, etc. We don't use CAFS, so that's not a factor, either.
As far as the mechanical/obstruction issues, I've been a firefighter for over three decades, I've fought thousands of fires, and I've seen a mechanical failure take a pump out exactly once in all of that time. Maybe I've just been lucky enough to work for departments that had good apparatus and good maintainence programs. As far as obstructions, gravel obstructing fog nozzles is much more common than larger obstructions jamming the pump. The nozzleman, not the pump operator, is going to troubleshoot that problem.
As far as warning the interior team that they're about to run out of water, a good lighting indicator system on the pump panel and a radio take care of that problem without requiring the pump operator to be leashed to the engine.
And...in the situation I'm discussing, the pump operator isn't "traipsing all over the scene". He's going to the rear windows, performing a specific assignment that takes less than one minute, and then returning to the engine.
I can't think of a single situation where it makes sense for the pump operator to be the IC. Command is a full-time job and the Incident Commander should have no other duties. The Incident Commander should be functioning at the Strategy level, period. The IC shouldn't even be operating at the Tactics level, let alone be performing hands-on Task-level work like operating a pump.
Ben
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Asst. 29,
In the situation I described, ventilating so that the interior crew is safe and effective is more strategically and tactically important than anything else you described. I'm not talking having the pump operator in the back yard for more than a minute or so. Take a tool, break a window or two, clean it out, verify that the ventilatin is effective, then go back and run the pump. Otherwise the initial hose team is taking an unnecessary beating and a one-line fire may progress to a multi-line fire or even a defensive operation just because conditions won't let the first engine crew get to the seat of the (unvented) fire.
Truck work is important, even if the truck company has not yet arrived.
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I am not saying that I am disagreeing with you on this. Yes ventilation is important. In a last ditch effort If I was in the situation you are explaining as the operator I would probably take it upon myself to vent. Only due to experience. On the other hand I have some pretty good operators that have stepped up and taken my place now that I am an officer but I would not want any of them to venture away from the truck. Yes I understand that circumstances at each and every structure we roll up on will be different, but typically at least in my area there would probably never be a instance were you would be responding with only a three man crew. We are definitely blessed with sufficient manpower, averaging around ten men per call and as I am sure you know when structure fire is the call they crawl out from everywhere.
With all that being said I am still a firm believer in the roles of each person or teams be strictly enforced.
Officer = Take charge, make decisions, Incident Management.
Chauffeur/Operator = Operate the truck and keep IC informed of your status, Stay in contact via radio with your hose lines.
Attack = Attack the fire
Search = search
Ventilation = ventilation
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Engineer k7,
According to your post, if the company officer orders the engineer to go to the rear and perform outside vent while the officer and nozzleman take the line in, and no one else is on scene yet, then the engineer is STUPID if he/she complies with the order?
Just wondering...
Ben
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