What kind of POV lights does everyone have and would anyone prefer some good lights or light setups to me.

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For starters, the OP, when corrected by a senior, experienced career officer that the letter [i] should be capitalized, responded by referring to the LT. as a "smartass." Subsequent comments by the same LT and others were further met with "smartass" from the OP.

The comment(s) about bullying is a bit of a straw man, it's a common 'buzz word' today about protecting kids from bullies, etc but really what you have is a kid who, rather than make any effort on his part to research his question simple posts yet another 'what color/type lights should I get?" As soon as he gets 'some' negative feedback (use search, correct your spelling) he gets rude and insulting. That's not a kid that is being bullied, that is a kid that is on his way to BEING a bully. He doesn't get what he wants he gets rude and aggressive.

Not everyone inherently knows the courtesies of online forums
That may be true for older adults but for people in their teens, that is hardly an excuse. There may be different 'protocols' on different forums, but basic, simple, common sense behavior IS inherent in every one. And I am willing to bet that using a forum's SEARCH function is ALWAYS recommended, encouraged, enforced. No one wants to see their forum muddied up with people asking the exact same question over and over again. In fact, this particular issue is almost always addressed in the FAQ's for every site.

What surprises me most is that you chose to take to task those you perceive to have "bullied" the OP and overlook the kid's rude and impolite behavior, not to mention his lack of spelling skills and his reluctance to be corrected.

As for 'the next generation of FFN members," really? This is just an online site, the membership comes and goes and this is little more than a construct, designed to mimic a social group, in other words, it's a virtual society, but without the rules and expectations that are present in REAL society, yet curiously, with similar ramifications.

So, instead of lecturing everyone on how THEY should behave (unless you're shooting for a gig as "Moderator" here) maybe you should take your free time and lecture the kids who come in here ignoring the rules (NOT ignorant of) and MENTOR them in the proper expected behavior. After all, they are not MY kids, they are NOT in my department, they are NOT on my engine, they are ONLY electronic 'images' here on FFN. As such they are NOT my responsibility, either to worry about their self-image or to smoothly integrate them into FFN. That is their own responsibility. And the best way to learn all that? Join, observe, read and keep your hands off the damn keyboard until you are well versed in the protocols here at FFN. Just jumping in first day, posting poorly written, redundant or nonsensical discussions shows immaturity and ignorance. In this virtual world it's not my job to teach them. In my house, perhaps a different story.
I agree.....
John,

I appreciate your points, they are well received. I disagree, obviously on some of them, but that is the nature of any discussion.

A couple of things. First, and this is an issue both in and out of the Fire Service, is that American society treats younger adults like adolescents much later in life than is appropriate. Frankly, in my experience, as a parent, Scoutmaster, Platoon Sergeant and Firefighter, the longer you treat someone like a child, the longer they continue to act like a child. conversely, the sooner you treat people like adults and entrust them with responsibility the sooner they mature into adults. Driving while responding to a call is just one more life and death responsibility many Firefighters whether they are 18 or 58 need to shoulder.

If the issue is that more twenty-somethings are involved in MVAs, especially in relation to responding to calls, then you need to discuss safe driving practices and responsible use of warning devices and practices MORE with this group rather than simply saying "don't have them." A great time to teach these points is when someone asks a related question, like where to get a good deal on warning lights.

Maybe I generalized a little about the city cousin - country cousin thing, but I have noted that the majority (not all) responses saying not to use POV warning lights at all list a medium to large city as where they work or live.

As for fomenting a career vs. volunteer argument, I am not. We perform the same function, whether paid full-time, paid on-call, or true volunteer, but departments do operate differently based upon whether they are Paid full-time, Combination or Volunteer. Not better or worse, just different, and in most paid departments there is no reason for Firefighters to have POV lights; in many departments you are not allowed to respond to calls when off-duty, so no need for lights on your personal vehicle. As a consequence, many career Firefighters just don't "get" having POV warning lights, and indicate they think POV lights are for those who just want to "show off" "be cool" or are "whackers." Generalizations? Perhaps, but then aren't most observations over a period of time?

The answer for me isn't to wait until a Firefighter "becomes" an experienced driver. The answer is training and guiding them through the experience until they are seasoned. This is where discussing the topic in a constructive manner comes into play, and yes, this should take place within the Firefighter's own department. Courses such as Emergency Vehicle Operations Course (EVOC) should be taught regularly and be required in order for a red light permit (or similar permit) be issued.

Incorporate driving with lights and sirens activated into weekly training. If the sound of sirens causes drivers to go faster, then train them not to do that.

All he asked for was advice on a light setup and a recommendation. He didn't ask if anyone thought he should or shouldn't have lights. That is the conversation that should happen at his department.

I trusted my life, for over 20 years in the Army to 18 and 19 year-olds who had the proper training, instilled discipline and responsibility to perform correctly, even with adrenaline and loud noises, why shouldn't we train the 18-twenty-somethings in the Fire Service to be as disciplined and responsible as Soldiers are in combat?

Greenman
The answer for me isn't to wait until a Firefighter "becomes" an experienced driver. The answer is training and guiding them through the experience until they are seasoned. This is where discussing the topic in a constructive manner comes into play, and yes, this should take place within the Firefighter's own department. Courses such as Emergency Vehicle Operations Course (EVOC) should be taught regularly and be required in order for a red light permit (or similar permit) be issued.


For the sake of discussion and so forth, I can agree to a part about having FF's with lights on a POV to undergo EVOC training as well as deptmental training. I never said that one should wait to become a more experienced driver, just that the stats are there and are against younger drivers.

Along with that comes the fact that the adrenaline rush and effects of the siren has caused "sirencide", where one gets more focused on going faster than about driving safely. Yes, with experience and maturity things do come into play, but yes training can as well. The biggest difference between driving a rig with lights and sirens and a POV is that many times you do have someone else with you in the rig.

Now, going back to the OP here, you have a kid who admits to still being in school and is very new on a dept asking about a light setup for a POV. As Jack mentioned, when things were pointed out and some constructive criticism pointed out the response was quite childlike, which can become the perception of others and should such a person really be worrying about lights?

The dept should have the say, but let's be honest, there have been numerous threads here about explorers and juniors and what they should be allowed to do and so forth. You even have adults who non-chalantly think it is OK to utilize children, thus bringing in question the integrity of such a dept. So yes, when you have a kid asking about light setups etc, this does lead to the questions and responses seen. Let's also face it, when looking back on similar threads, it is not a seasoned adult typically bringing up such a discussion.


I trusted my life, for over 20 years in the Army to 18 and 19 year-olds who had the proper training, instilled discipline and responsibility to perform correctly, even with adrenaline and loud noises, why shouldn't we train the 18-twenty-somethings in the Fire Service to be as disciplined and responsible as Soldiers are in combat?


There IS a big difference between the military and the fire service. As a veteran myself I understand what you are saying and you do see younger folks entrusted with huge responsibilities in the military. However, in order to get to that point one still goes through extensive and intensive training to also establish the correct mindset. Boot camp is the first stop where you learn to live the lifestyle you are going into, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. you are immersed in the military lifestyle. The same thing can not be said for a fire academy, no matter which one it is.

After boot camp, the new recruit typically goes right into their schooling and the military lifestyle is expanded upon while learning your job. From this point that new recruit should be molded into the basics of their job and have discipline and responsibility instilled into them before they meet up with their command. From there it just progresses.

Meanwhile in the fire service side of things you don't have such actions taken to mold a new FF. Despite an academy timeframe, one still gets to go home at night and has weekends off etc. They still get all their toys and electronics and so forth. Yes, it does take personal initiative outside the academy to learn, but my point is there is a difference between fire training and military.

For the most part, most fire training is no where near the intesity of some large city academies, especially when we look into the training of such young FF's like the OP here. Majority of firefighters in this country have never once been through an actual academy, most have received their training through the job or through some classes. Sure one can coin the term "academy" when referring to getting their FF certs, but in all reality, it is not the same thing.


Now I understand what you are saying about "the longer you treat someone like a child, the longer they continue to act like a child. conversely, the sooner you treat people like adults and entrust them with responsibility the sooner they mature into adults". I agree with you here, but there are also some basics. I don't agree with any dept anywhere that thinks it is OK to utilize children younger than 18 for any actual work on the fireground or even responding in a POV, let alone with lights. There are age requirements for a reason. Now this doesn't mean a jr or explorer or young adult can't show maturity etc, but part of accepting responsibility comes with patience to wait for one to meet that age requirement. Even the military has standards to meet and is a great rarity for anyone younger than 18 to ship to boot.

One doesn't need to treat every kid like a child, but it does come into the perspective as well. In this thread the OP has shown he is still acting like a child. On the internet, there does come into issue the same question asked over and over or the entitlement opinions of many younger folks here. Sometimes a dose of harsh reality gets the point across and you have seen that here. Not every kid is a winner and not everyone gets a trophy, in life there are disappointments as well as doing things for oneself. Show initiative and take some personal responsibility. The same old threads get old, especially when new ones are consistently being created.
I don't agree with any dept anywhere that thinks it is OK to utilize children younger than 18 for any actual work on the fireground or even responding in a POV, let alone with lights.

We're in 100% agreement here. Juniors/Explorers have no role on the fireground under any circumstances. I must have missed the where he said he was still in school. At the risk of taking people at face value, I did see where he states he is a Firefighter/EMT-B, so I would presume he didn't mean he was still in high school, and that he is at least 18.

You do make a valid point about the fire Service not being as intensive in establishing a disciplined lifestyle, but I am a firm believer in the "now you are an adult with adult responsibilities" talk on a person's 18th birthday, but honestly if a young can't function mentally as an adult prior to their 18th birthday they are lagging behind. All too often these days I see a prevailing attitude that 18-21 year old people are some kind of "super adolescent" and not full adults.


I also realize that I am in the minority in that I don't care if a thread's been done once, or a thousand times before. Every member has the ability to start a new thread, and every member has the ability to not read a thread that reflects the same question they've read before. This thread, for example, has stayed at the top much longer than it otherwise would have because everyone wanted to dog pile the OP, when it could be on page 12 or 13 by now if they hadn't. Just saying.

Greenman
Whether school means high school or college, I can't say for sure, however, a mature, responsible person wouldn't be calling a seasoned LT a smartass either. With anything a first impression is key, how one presents themselves, how they handle criticism, how their spelling and grammar is, etc. If he is 18, he still has some maturing to do.

Never heard the term "super adolescent" before but does seem to fit. While 18 is the magic age to be considered an adult, there is still much maturing to do, even if one seems to be quite mature. For many such an age group is the time they start venturing on their own and find that mistakes have consequences, unfortunately despite the cautions from those who have lived it. (you know, us, but what do we know).

In the military, there is still some structured guidence for this age range, considering this takes one through their first enlistment. Those in college, etc well they don't always have that same structure, but like anywhere you will have those showing more maturity than others. A big difference today is that the days of graduating HS and going to work in the factory etc are pretty much done. Now there is more asked of people so in a sense you do see more asked from younger folks today.

The paradox of such a response is that this response will put this thread on top, but then again, some of this discussion has gone beyond the original question and could be viewed in a different perspective. What does remain is that a simple search should be done before arbitrarily starting new threads like these.
So I suppose this would be a bad time to ask what lights everyone uses? I'm sorry I had to get my sarcastic comment in before my real post.

Some are probably wondering who this new guy is. So here is a short history. I got my EMT basic license in 1993. I then joined the Navy and was a Naval Firefighter station in Norfolk VA. I joined Virginia Beach EMS and ran out of Station 4. We were 100% volunteer EMS at that time. Not sure if it still is the same. I worked my way up to lieutenant and also ran the heavy rescue. I did my time in the Navy and then returned home to Michigan. I joined Maple Ridge Fire. At that time we were 100% volunteer. Did that for a few years took a job transfer to Grand Rapids. I ended up letting my EMT license lapse never thought I would return to the field. Long story short we end up back in my home town I rejoin Maple Ridge. I end up going through EMT-Basic all over again. We were the first volunteer agency to become EMT-Basic in our county. We are also now a paid on call department. I now work full time as a county 911 dispatcher and a few years ago I hired in part time for a ambulance service. I only do the transfers from hospitals for them. Well thats me in a nut shell.

I recently added some red flashing lights to my POV. Where I am located is a very rural area, 99% of the time I respond to calls POV, A good portion of those calls being medical calls. Our department is fire and EMT-Basic non transport so we have to hold down the scene till the ambulance gets there from town. Well anyways a few months back I was struck by a passing motorist as I was getting my gear from the rear of my vehicle. Normally I would turn on my 4 way flashers once arriving to a scene I always pull off on the shoulder as far as possible. But this was a snowy night and there was a fire, So there I am trying to dress out in turn outs when someone who was more amazed at the fire and not paying attention to the snow covered roads slide into me and my vehicle. I got very lucky that I was only clipped by the vehicle and thrown into the ditch. I don't really remember a whole lot more other than waking up in a ER.
The point in all this? Do emergency lights belong on responders POV? Yes and no. They are great for marking the scene and help pushing traffic away from you. But no offense to the younger guys here, they are abused too much and people don't respect them as years in the past. Numerous people I have spoken to have given the horror stories of being passed by the "Hobby hosers" yes that is a term used here...lol and I use it myself. I am a volunteer not a hobby hoser, the difference being I don't get geeked up by wearing all the t-shirts and jackets you see everyone wear anymore. Other than some flashing lights in my rear window and a strobe on the dash of my vehicle you wouldn't be able to tell I volunteer. I don't respond hot those lights are not turned on till I am on scene and only if I arrive first. I do have a siren only because its a requirement to have if your going to have lights.
I dont care who he is hes not my LT. and he doesnt need to be going around correcting people its a little rude.
Oops!! thanks Cap, the color of choice today is WHITE. Thats right, chicks dig the white hat!
I dont remember the last time my light bar put out a fire. But when it does i will let you know.
It does not matter that he is not your LT, he is a seasoned Firefighter and should be shown the correct amount of respect regardless. oh yes, it seems that you have started using a capitol "I", so something must have sunk in...........
Let me just say as a ruralie that we are not allowed to go POV. We must go to our respective stations and follow the guidelines of "2 in 2 out".

It all depends on what your departments SOP's are and should be followed. The OP needs to check with his CO to find out what his departments SOP's are and at that point maybe his CO can let him know what is standard for his area.

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