The Social Network & Community JUST for Firefighters
"On Scene; Two Story Wood Frame, visible fire, extending, on the number two floor"....
"On Scene; Two Story Wood Frame, visible fire, extending, on the number two floor"....
You have a structure fire located within Type V Residential occupancy. The structure is a duplex occupancy, with both dwellings occupied. Numerous power and utility lines transverse at street side.
The structure was built in 1932 and is a typical Four Corner Design with a pyramid roof. The fire (A-B quad) is extending from the room of origin into the interior hallway and is observed upon arrival to have extended through the window. It’s an afternoon, manpower and alarm assignment resources are what (you) typically have.
The hydrant is located across the street (arrow location).
Discuss the characteristics expected by a building and occupancy of this type.?
What is the projected fire behavior and travel paths?
What tactical options are available to you to implement?
What is the safety risk profile?
Share any pertinent experiences or lessons-learned you may have had in similar structures...
Replies to This Discussion
-
Permalink Reply by Bull on
-
Well...I would call for mutual aid, ambulance, and power company as soon as the page went out for a possible structure fire. Once on scene I would relay what kind of conditions, do my 360. Im going to say this is during the week not weekend, for we are short handed during that time period for we are a volly dept. I see a car, not sure if they are out, if not...I would send a team for a primary search of the first floor, and possibly part of the upstairs if conditions permit. Send a team to notify the people in the next apartment, and look for possible extension. Not sure if you can get upstairs from the outside. I would start getting attack lines out, and hooking up to water supply. Hopefully more manpower arrives by this time. Then I would send a attack team in the front door upstairs to attack, again...if conditions permit. It looks like there is a patio deck off the back on the 2nd floor, could possibly make entry there as well. If not, then I would attack from a defense mode till fire is under control, and more personel arrive. I would set up mutual aid to protect structures on B & D sides. Fire has already self-vented out window. If we get a good knockdown, start checking the attic for extension, hopefully the team I sent in the other apartment could do that from there posistion as explained earlier. There is smoke showing out of the eaves on the other apartment, thats where I believe the fire is going. I would not have hoses or personel on the B side with all those lines in the air, unsure what kind they are.
-
Permalink Reply by Todd on
-
Built in 1932 this house has wood roof joists and 1"x 4" wood slats with sheeting and then shingles. Its ability to hold up under fire conditions is better than wood trusses that we have today. Also may be looking at balloon frame which is a distinct charateristic if windows all in line vertically. So becareful here because balloon frame buildings often will have fires in basements and won't expose themselves until they break through in the attic space. This fire appears to have started in the second floor judging by the amount of fire from the second floor but a 360' should be able to determine if the basement is involved.
This fire is obviously self vented however horizontal spread is a concern to other interior expousers. It appears that the fire is lapping into the overhang and verticle extinsion in the attic is iminate. Verticle ventilation is mainly to prevent fire spread.
Verticle ventilation is a must to prevent spread. A 1 3/4" handline will knock this down effectively starting at the stairway and advancing in. A primary on second floor followed by first floor. I know the posibilities of people sleeping on the second floor is minimal but if they are there they are in the greatest danger.
Basement, do the 360' to evaluate if a basement is involved. Also, watch placement of ground ladders for verticle ventilation.
-
Permalink Reply by Shareef Abdu Nur on
-
As the Truck OIC and 1st Due, I would immediately advise Dispatch of a working structure fire in 2.5 story 2 family side by side with fire showing 2nd floor "A" side. I would request a 2nd and 3rd residential alarm(4 engines,2 trucks, 2 medic squads, air truck, and 2 chiefs). Afternoon with vehicles in the driveway? could be a weekend or a no school day. double occupancy? either way, we search. I would have the operator extend the aerial to the porch roof. he and another member would VES from the second floor while I and another member would force entry on the 1st floor and search. I would adivse the 1st due Engine to stretch in the front door, up the stairs, and down the hallway for an interior attack. I would advise the 2nd Engine to establish the water supply and stretch a 2nd line. The Medic crew would secure utilities and outside vent. the 2nd due Truck would force entry into the exposure and search. 3rd due Engine is RIT. By this time, a chief would be on scene. I would exit the structure and give him a report. He would assume command and assign companies as he/she deemed necessary.
-
Permalink Reply by Floyd Aldridge Jr on
-
I agree with ya Ted, This is not a Blitz attack!!
-
-
Sorry I West Philly!!
-
-
I meant to say I agreed with West Philly not Ted!!
-
Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
-
Philly,
I'd split the difference between Ted's attack plan and yours...hit the fire (briefly) with a straight stream from the outside, then take that line in and up to cut the fire off from the rest of the house and any viable victims that may be trapped upstairs.
The straight stream won't drive the fire anywhere and it will slow the firespread down to give the first engine time to make the cut-off-point at the top of the stairs before the flashover gets there.
From the limited smoke spread away from the fire in Division 2, I'd surmise that there may be a closed interior door between the fire and the rest of Division 2. If that's the case, the door may not last long with that much fire hitting it.
Hitting the fire from the outside long enough to nail the flashover might save the interior door, and it will definately slow the fire down and buy time for the 1st engine inside.
I don't know about getting the roof right now, either. The fire is autovented and we may not need to vent the cockloft if we can contain the main body of fire quickly.
-
Permalink Reply by Tony P on
-
Ben, that's the closest I've heard yet to the type of attack we'd use in this sort of situation!. Who said we're different?
A jet from the outside while a crew got a line inside and to the seat of the fire. Most likely a ladder to that low roof area to assist with the firefight from that window or to gain access to the roof to shift tiles (which is what the roof would be here) and search for extension when the fire had been brought under control.
A crew into the other half of the building to ensure no spread - that small amount of smoke exiting along the roof edge would need investigation.
-
-
Oh you artistic person you! At least, I'll allow you artistic licence for calling 'mention extension' poetry...
I'll expand on my post. The first crew would be going inside and upstairs with a line, the outside support would take place only when there were enough people availablle. Unless we were doing external only (doesn't happen often, only if the building is going from top to bottom and all points in between) the second line would be for exposure protection where required. In the case pictured that would mean into the other part of the building, the other dwelling. Not many of our pumpers have a roof monitor, but I've heard of them being used in initial attack - your 'blitz'? (Clever pun by the way)
We always respond multiple Stations to any major incident - what you'd probably call mutual aid. With this, we always know what appliances are coming, and that they'll be on-scene within a couple of minutes of us. If we see smoke while on the way it's likely that we'll call for more pumpers without waiting - it's easy to turn people back if you don't need them. Oh, areials are very few and far between, and your concept of 'trucks' doesn't exist at all.
Ventilation for us is very much a secondary thing, we get there and get water onto the fire as a first approach. Vertical ventilation is usually only for overhaul.
You don't like the idea of a crew on that low area (looks like a walled in verahdah or porch)? If it was deemed safe we'd place a short ladder up and use it as a workspace. Very much depends on the fire behaviour/likely spread of course. And we'll often use a hose from a ladder, if it gives better vision and access. Our main attack lines are usually 38mm (1.5 inch) which is another thing that will horrify you? But they work.
Arguing? No, not me mate. I know full well that our tactics are very different from those used in North America - we're much closer to the Brits and Europeans in our methods. So I don't expect much in the way of agreement - we're too different. I just treat this as a learning place.
Now religion? I'm agnostic too - which really means a lazy atheist. Politics? Probably a true liberal - in other words midway between conservative and socialist. And I won't argue about either of those things!
-
-
Philly,
I'm not really talking about a blitz attack - I'm talking about Transitional (Defensive to Offensive) mode. Blitz attacks (at least as I've always heard them defined) use large-caliber lines (2.5 inch, 3 inch, or portable monitors) and stay on the exterior. What I'm talking about involves a 1.75-inch line used briefly from the outside, then quickly move inside. A key variable is the number of firefighters you have arriving quickly.
If you have several companies, all with at least 4 firefighters, then it's going to be a lot easier and quicker to get the 1st line inside and up the stairs in a hurry than if you have one engine with 3 firefighters.
If you're in my departmen't situation, for the first 4 minutes or so you're limited to a single engine company with 3 firefighters. The 30 seconds or so it would take to suppress the flashover from the exterior is time well spent. If there's anyone in the flashed over area, they're dead. If there's anyone in the rest of the upstairs, whatever method stops the fire from getting to them is the best. I used to hate transitional (exterior, then interior) firefights until I participated in enough of them to understand their value in some situations. That situational value increases with diminished initial manpower.
As for aggressive horizontal ventilation - am I missing something, or didn't the fire already do that for us?
I'm not arguing against your methodology. It obviously works for your department. However, most of the rest of us don't have the warm bodies to multitask this fire the way you do. When you have limited manpower, then getting a quick knockdown may be the only thing that will keep the interior of Division 2 tenable long enough to get a few firefighters in position to cut the fire off and search the upstairs.
-
Permalink Reply by Engineco913 on
-
Just my thoughts on this one....
In the photo it appears as though the room has already flashed over. Note the exterior presence of window parts burning (on the low pitch roof and the ground behind the car) as proof it has flashed. With the fire extending in the hallway (using the equipment I have on my apparatus) I would deploy 2 lines of 2" crosslays to the second floor off of my first Engine. My ladder company would try to assess a safe location to access the roof with the ladder. With the quantity of fire exposure it will become necessary to open up the roof and start with the extension issues. Note the flame color on the soffit/facia level above the driveway (A-B side)in the photo. This is a good indicator you have a good fire started in that area that needs to be addressed. I would have the next company start throwing ground ladders (one on the low pitch roof, and one to the second floor in the rear of the building) and then prepare for the search behind the operating hoselines. I would have my second due Engine assist with connecting and securing water from the hydrant across the street to the Lead Engine. My second Engine crew would be making entry to do a primary search of the adjacent apartment and also checking for exposure. My third Engine crew would be bringing in a third line (if needed) and/or pulling walls and ceilings on the fire floor to extinguish the attic extension. My first Mutual Aid company would be assigned RIT and would be set up for deployment.
Looking at the home next door, the vinyl siding hasn't even started to melt yet so exposure issues to the neighboring home shouldn't become a major priority since water will be flowed and the temperature dropped rapidly. Being a residential construction from the 30's is a general indicator we will most likely find rafters anywhere from 16" o/c to 30" o/c (I have seen rafters 4' o/c) with either spaced boards, or some type of roof planking as apposed to plywood. If the fire reaches this area it can be a pain to get out due to the spacing and voids.
I would avoid the area under the powerlines due to the exposure to extreme heat they have received until the power is secured to EACH line running that direction by the power company.
I would have 2 ambulances standing by (one for the possible tennant, one to begin rehab) and call in more as the scene evolved. (if needed)
-
Permalink Reply by james young on
-
not a blitz-attack
© 2024 Created by Firefighter Nation WebChief.
Powered by
