The Social Network & Community JUST for Firefighters
"On Scene; Two Story Wood Frame, visible fire, extending, on the number two floor"....
"On Scene; Two Story Wood Frame, visible fire, extending, on the number two floor"....
You have a structure fire located within Type V Residential occupancy. The structure is a duplex occupancy, with both dwellings occupied. Numerous power and utility lines transverse at street side.
The structure was built in 1932 and is a typical Four Corner Design with a pyramid roof. The fire (A-B quad) is extending from the room of origin into the interior hallway and is observed upon arrival to have extended through the window. It’s an afternoon, manpower and alarm assignment resources are what (you) typically have.
The hydrant is located across the street (arrow location).
Discuss the characteristics expected by a building and occupancy of this type.?
What is the projected fire behavior and travel paths?
What tactical options are available to you to implement?
What is the safety risk profile?
Share any pertinent experiences or lessons-learned you may have had in similar structures...
Replies to This Discussion
-
Permalink Reply by Firedog on
-
Enter throug the A side with 13/4 preconnect .instruct 2nd company to back up with another 13/4 preconnect.Third company supply ladder company and third engine extention in the attic. Primary should be conducted .Use of the staiway should allow fire to be attacked from unburned side and keep it out of the rest of the house. (Thanks for the post keep up the practice )
-
Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
-
Philly,
In my case, it's going to be a single engine with 3 firefighters, and one of them is at the hydrant unless the second engine is right behind the first. The officer would pull the attack line and hit the fire as I described, using water from the tank. Once the hydrant firefighter charges the supply line, he masks up, joins the officer, and they take the line inside.
I'm all about getting charged lines between potential victims and the fire, but it takes manpower to do it. The other consideration is that this fire is well-involved enough that if we don't stop the spread right now, we may not be able to make it upstairs. Yes, smoke kills people, but you can resuscitate smoke inhalation victims. It's a little more difficult to resuscitate flashover victims.
I'm also looking at minimal smoke other than the well-vented fire in the front. The lighter smoke looks like it's mostly from the attic, not the interior of Division 2. A quick exterior knock on the outside fire will stop or at least significantly slow that smoke push, particularly if an upstair interior door is closed between the fire and any potential victims.
Once again, I'm not arguing against your way of doing it...if you have at least a 4-firefighter crew on the first engine. We almost never have that luxury. We don't have the initial manpower limitations that Ted does, but we're closer to his situation than yours - at least for the first four or five minutes.
Ben
-
Permalink Reply by Pat Murphy on
-
Thank God! Atleast there is a few people out there that aren't getting "shocked and awed" by a room and contents fire.
Save that 750 GPM 1 minute blast, which probably most won't even get inside the room to the base of the fire, for a 185 GPM, 4 minutes of fun! You just might put the fire out!
Atleast somebody else agrees that master streams push fire...Take it easy bro!
PM
-
Permalink Reply by Russell Stine on
-
First arriving engine company takes plug, officer and the nozzle man pull a preconnect and work upstairs. The first truck disconnects the meter and gas, and the truck officer and another go upstairs to start vent efforts. Because the fire is already coming through the wall, no further ventilation is needed. Pushing the fire back down the hallway is a priority, so the second engine pulls a 2nd preconnect and backs up the first attack team. Third engine becomes RIT and the rescue company does a primary search. Another truck is needed as this building is an older home converted into a duplex and a search for life and extension should occur in the advancent structure. There is a strong possibility of extension.
An older structure will sustain fire for longer but hold heat longer as well, containment of the fire is vital to maintaining the structural intergrity. An aggressive interior attack is needed. The fire will travel out of the room of origin and find another source of fuel. Keeping the fire in the hallway is important so we should be concentrating two handlines on this, one to push the fire back and the other to control spot fires in other rooms. The truck should be pulling ceiling in the hallway behind the attack crew to ensure that there is no fire spread back behind the attack teams. Occupant risk is low based on time of day.
-
Permalink Reply by Tim on
-
I'm going to try and take a stab at this. All you "Vet's" can let me know how close I am. ;-)
A house this age, I would assume there is going to be more "wood" in the roof compared to the regular engineered truss with gusset constructuion. As a type V construction home this is the one I would want to be on if given the choice. It being a multiple family dwelling I would also assume a fire wall would be in place if code does so inforce the issue in its location. Aslo being a type V building construction, even though it is older, the charicteristics of such construction is volital. I would say no balloon framing would be in place because of its age;however, expect the unexpected...right? The general characteristics.....it's gonna burn unless we do something!
My observation on the projected fire behavior and travel paths? Fire burns up and out, so I have learned. It seems it has already self vented from the (A) side and the wind seems to be in our favor as well. I feel it will keep burning from the floor out along the edges of the structure.
Tactics? I am from a Combination Department with a wonderful response from our volunteers so man power is not a problem nor is aparatus response. Here is my take on the tactics this fire has allowed me to repond with. Usually my Engine consists of 4 personell... Engineer, Capt, 2- FF. As I bring my engine in I would drop my 5 inch and a Firefighter at the hydrant to do a forward lay. As I pulled up I would do a "quicky" as I pulled up looking at the D, A, and B side. As we stepped down, Cap would check out the C side as I hooked up my end on the 5" and started getting water. At the same time my FF would have pulled the 13/4" line off the front cross lay. My second engine would probably be arriving at about the same time my Cap has come back around from the C side with 3 personell, and Chief in his vehicle. As stated above, this dwelling is occupied. So right now I am in rescue mode. Cap would have said to send in 4 with the line. All 4 would advance up the stairs located in the front of the house. Once upstairs, If possible, 2 would break off and perform a sweep as the nozzle man and side kick hit the fire from the inside out. this would be a quick in and out. By now I would have another supply of about 4-5 more personell ready to do something. I would send another 2 hand lines on both B and D outside exposures at a ready to protect the residence on either side. Depending on what rescue one has found the sweep would move downstairs as the front crosslay nozzleman hit the fire as needed. As the rescue went on, again depending on what was found, we would then go into fighting mode as the interior crew gave it hell. Like I said before the wind direction and the availability to go up the stairs and face the fire would lend us to do an interior attack.
We had a fire like this on about a week ago and this is pretty much how we handled it. The only exeption is we had no hydrant and had to depend on tanker shuttles and another engine to supply the truck. Other then that we spent more time waiting on the Fire Marshall to show up then we did putting out the fire!lol
P.S. I am a Firefighter, not a literature major. Sorry for the mispelling!:-)
-
-
Pat,
The fire being discussed here is not a room and contents fire.
According to the scenario information, it is extending into the interior hallway.
It has definately flashed over and extended to the exterior.
The soffits are burning and smoke is showing from the attic.
Ben
-
Permalink Reply by Robert Owens on
-
A blitz attack would work fine if and I would consider it with our manpower situation and the fact that this thing is headed for attic city.
Fire will not be pushed into the structure unless you use a fog stream....utlizing a solid or straight stream will not push the fire...it will simple put it out.
-
Permalink Reply by Jeff Cole on
-
Although there isn't much spectacular about this fire, the discussions show how different departments are forced to operate with variable levels of staffing, and the arrival of that staffing. It's really "bread n butter" if you have a box alarm assignment of "4 and 2" with four on the engine and five on a truck. It's quite different if you are coming in on the initial with 3 or 4, and anything past the second-due is beyond three minutes away. It's easy to be critical of one's answer when they are used to operating one way, and that way is the ultimate in staffing and command.
Answers begiing with 'mutail-aid' and discriptions of individual running and staffing assignments ARE the basis on formulating an attack and strategies. I find it quite easy to assign companies to accomplish objectives with unlimited resources. Try doing the same thing WITHOUT that luxery, and your gonna be lost.
Most likely what we see NOW is going to multiply withing the next couple minutes, that being "set -up time". Arriving with 3/4 of an engine company and maybe another 3/4 as second due, and any possible "truck" company a few more minutes away does NOT preclude a quick hit with master stream from the deluge IF that is your best option. Will it blow it through the house/ Maybe, maybe not. It WILL darken down the majority of the fire. If your strapped for personnel, and have to gamble with one line getting into place, with little chance of truck support, and a back-up, or second line...are you suppossed to take that chance?
I ay this only becouse not everyone has the benifit of optimal staffing. To ME, I see this as an offensive job,stretching the first line up the stairs, and likely confining it intitially to where it is. I don't subscribe to the 1.75" line for everthing mentality either. Philly may take withthat, Boston may stretch "a big line". Given the response time and staffing and location of MY second-due, I would be happy with a 2" line personally.
This is a minimal initial 3 line fire. One to confine and control (location is mostly obvious), one to back it up, and one to the exposure next door.
While the roof, and vertical ventilation seems obvious, again you need consider staffing. Personally I want that second floor laddered first, with the horizontal vent of that "B" side done simultaneously. The front porch roof is easily accessed for VES. Once that is completed, and the exterior vent crew has laddered, they move to primary search and complete horizontal vent. A second truck, or any company assigned as a second truck will be given the roof for vertical ventilation.
Of course utility control and utility companies , as well as EMS will necessary.
-
Permalink Reply by Christopher J. Naum, SFPE on
-
Thanks for the reply Jeff....
-
-
Jeff,
That was a great reply.
I have a couple of questions for you.
Since this fire is autovented and flashed over, what will laddering Side B and venting accomplish?
Woudn't that tend to draw the fire toward the new vent opening - in other words, won't that extend the fire more quickly?
Ditto for Side A VES from the front porch. The scenario gives us that the fire is extending to the interior, presumably via the Division 2 hallway. Is there a chance that VES from the front will pull the fire further toward Side D of the involved apartment?
-
Permalink Reply by sully on
-
THIRES NO NEED TO HIT THE FIRE FROM THE OUTSIDE. ALL THAT IS GOING TO DO IS PUSH THE FIRE BACK INTO THE HOUSE FUTHER THEN NEED. I FEEL DOING A INSIDE QUICK FIRE ATTACK IS KEY. IF YOU CAN MAKE TO THE SECOND FLOOR AND AND ATTACK IT FROM THERE AND ONE IT'S UNDER CONTROL THEN HAVE THE SECONDARY ATTACK GET FROM THE FIRST FLOOR. THE BLITZ ATTACK THE IS JUST NOT THE TYPE OF FIRE TO USE THAT ON. AND BY LOOKING AT THE FIRE AND THE AMOUNT OF FIRE COMIMG FROM THE SECOND FLOOR . IT COULD OF HAPPEN IN THAT FRONT CORNER OF THE HOUSE. THE KEY THING IS TO SOUND THE FLOORS BEFORE TAKEN ANY STEPS TO ATTACK THE FIRE. I KNOW FROM EXPERIACNE THAT FALLING THOUGH A FLOOR , IT'S NOT THE FALL THAT HURTS IT ALL THE DAMN EQUIPMENT THAT YOU HAVE ON PLUS YOUR BODY WEIGHT AND THAT SUDDEN STOP THAT HURTS.
-
-
I am considering an interior stairwell and access from the front. Line up the stairs, and hopefully hitting any fire in the hallway as we progress, and making it into the front where the fire is. I want the window midway towards the back cleaned out and laddered as an escape route if needed. Once the line is in place, taking that window shouldn't be a problem. It HAS to be opened up regardless. Again, failure to vent will only make it more difficult to progress.
As for the front, maybe I answered that too quick. I admit I didn't take a long enough look at the one pic. This seems to be clearly another property, with the smoke conditions it would seem fire isn't in there yet, so a VES off that roof may not be a consideration. However a line should be taken into that property, and the obvious search with appropriate procedures for extension. TIC, etc.
This DOES appear to be very basic job, get behind it, push it out.
But I reiterate. While I understand that this MAY "push" fire through the interior, with limited resources, and considering that staffing issue, others may be adament about hitting from exterior, but some have no choice. You simply cannot always consider your own departments abilities and resources as what everyone else has. 2 engines, 2 trucks, 8 to 12 firefighters could confine and control this fire rather easily with an aggressive, interior attack. Those who do NOT have those resources, and maybe have an immediate staffing of 5 at best, may have no alternative. We need to understand this, and not relate our own situation to be the normal for everyone else. That's why I can understand the thoughts of of a quick exterior hit.
I KNOW what I would do with OUR resources. But I do not consider that to be how everyone else would do it.
And that is simply ... my opinion.
- ‹ Previous
- 1
- 2
- 3
- Next ›
© 2024 Created by Firefighter Nation WebChief.
Powered by
