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Mayday. At what point do you just need to call in the RIT team?
Recently my department heald training at our county's smoke house. during one of the evolutions a proby from one of the other dparments panicked while inside, the two other men on his hoseline had to DRAG him out. the team anounced the exit but didn't call a mayday, by the time they got to the door myself and other members of the rit team noticed that he was unconscious. He turned out to be ok. but do you think they were right in handling it themselfs or should they have called a mayday and let the rit come in and help... I mean isn't that why we were there?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on
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It should have been an automatic mayday in my eyes. The line officer should have called a mayday first and foremost so everyone else can clear radio traffic for the incident commander to recieve the info he needs to send the RIT in.
And if there wasn't training in MAYDAY operations, nor a clear instruction on emergency procedures, then how does one know when to call a MAYDAY?
When you have jr FF's on the RIT team, shouldn't there be a question of their knowledge then in the situation? Should students with questionable training be utilized as such a crew in a real situation?
If we can't follow through with recognizing the situation on the training ground then how are we going to deal with it when it slaps you right in the face on a real incident?
Training and identification absolutely is important for a MAYDAY. However, the level of knowledge and training here comes into question. To me this sounds like very green FF's and juniors, of different depts, doing some training. MAYDAY procedures may not have been clearly explained and it is possible such people know of a MAYDAY in talk only, but never really had training. So how would one really recognize a MAYDAY situation then?
There are many questions that should be answered before the Monday morning QB'ing. If a jr FF is not supposed to do fireground operations, then would they really know what to do for RIT operations in such a training situation?
It is one thing if the FF's were all of one dept and all were certified FF's. This sounds like a joint training, perhaps some type of SCBA confidence/ TIC training. The instructors may not have been certified instructors, or emergency procedures may not have been made clear prior to operations taking place. There are many variables at hand here which haven't been answered to make the judgement that the MAYDAY should have been called. If one had not really been trained or the instructions/procedures made clear, then it is quite possible one wouldn't recognize to call a MAYDAY.
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Permalink Reply by 55 TRUCK on
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I agree with John 100%. Jr FF on RIT! & Green FF!.... What Honyock head thought this up? Who was in command? What are the SOP/SOG for the Depts? Are there clearly defined SOPs/SOGs for mutual aid RIT?
Again..WHAT HONYOCK HEAD set this up!?
The guys inside probably figured, we'll drag him out ourselves. With Jr FF on the RIT. What's the point.
Here we train to call a MAyday when you first get in trouble we use LUNAR. Also we let command know if we are working our way through the problem. Most times we can or there are other firefighters near by who help you out.
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Permalink Reply by Paul Montpetit on
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We had training on airpacks one day....well, as we exited the "obstacle course"(lack of better term) they threw a chunk of chain length fence over us and stood on it until we managed to get to our radios and call the "MAYDAY" then they allowed us to get free and they waited for the next person to make it to them...then the same treatment.....opened a few eyes that day....
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Permalink Reply by Jason on
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There are training programs out there for the MAYDAY callout. Our department teaches it in every recruit class and some of us that has been in for a while has had the class. In the class we had it told us in what situations aand when to call for it. We had a simulation we crawled through that had these hazards that would cause you to call out the MAYDAY. If you don't train on it, then you and everyone will will panic when it does happen. Also, don't let your pride get in the way of your life. When in doubt....call the MAYDAY out!
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Permalink Reply by Don Catenacci on
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We need to stop waiting until we are already dying to call a MayDay. Once we feel we are in trouble CALL IT. What's the worst that happens? They find you still viable and alive and help you find your way out.
Pride is a wonderful thing to a point. Not so wonderful if it gets you killed because you are too proud to call for help.
Anytime we are dealing with a hazardous atmosphere, smoke or fire, even in training we should have a RIT team standing by and ready. And the reality of RIT is the RIT team really needs to be trained in RIT procedres not just 4 guys standing there with tools looking the part.
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Don,
While I do agree with you and have had classes with you, I guess the point remains to the context of this thread. You are hearing from a person who is a jr FF, who happened to be on the RIT team for this said incident.
Being as though I know you are a well respected instructor here, I would like to ascertain your opinion on the situation at hand. Going back to the first couple pages here I asked the OP as to this training etc. He responded stating he was a jr FF, this was not a live fire training, noted the people involved said they were coming out, the training simulator did have egress points etc. To me this training sounds like an evolution of very green FF's along with jr FF's etc for TIC/search training. This is my theory as it has not been confirmed by the OP.
So to you, being a fire service instructor, I know it was stated clearly emergency procedures in such an incident and a RIT team would consist of instructors if a real MAYDAY situation occurred. So I ask you what is your take on this? Is it possible that said individuals possibly jr FF's and or new/green FF's may be in this training and not really know about when to call a MAYDAY, let alone a RIT team comprised of students to activate? Would you hold the same sentiment?
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When we have training we have very strict mandates about who and what resources are to be avail;able....For example...we have to have an ambulance and a dedicated EMT (or higher trained) on hand that is NOT (I repeat NOT) involved in the class...in simple terms they cannot be students serving as medical coverage....All apparatus involved in the training is manned by the Department that supplies the equipment for the training....all hose lines must supply at a minimum of 125 gpm during the evolutions.....there must be an instructor for every 5 students during all evolutions.....and several others.....The RIT team should NOT be made up of students....they should be experienced firefighters........
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Man I hate computers some times. I had a fairly long answer to your question and then POOF it was gone. So here goes.
I am not a fan of using new or fairly new firefighters as RIT members. They don't have the training, skills, or experience to do the job properly. But a conundrum appears, if they shouldn't do it because they don;t have the experience, where do they get the experience?
The answer, use greener firefighters as part of the RIT in smoke only training under the guidance of an instructor or instructors. In live fire use experienced troops with instructors, or instructors ony as RIT.
In the scenario originally by the OP, I definitely would have called a MayDay. They had a panicking student who stopped breathing. I can't think of a clearer call RIT situation than that.
If you disagree let's discuss this more.
By the way, thank you for the kind words. I just try to teach like I want to be taught and pass along the few things I know to help the up and comers in our business.
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Here is my thoughts. Considering you DO have jr FF's and quite possibly new/green FF's doing this training, it is possible such folks don't know or haven't trained on how or even when to call a MAYDAY. It is also quite possible a RIT team doesn't know what their role would be either.
This could possibly be a joint type of training consisting of different depts jr/new FF's and instructors may or may not really be certified, and or/ potentially never discussed MAYDAY, RIT ops. I asked, but have not received an answer yet. I can say as an Explorer advisor, we have done similar types of training with Explorers with several of us not being certified instructors.
Now from trainings I have been with, MAYDAY, RIT, and emergency procedures were clearly explained prior to the evolution taking place. In the event of an actual emergency, instructors would be the RIT team if one was to be deployed. In this case the two inside stated they were coming out, but sounds like they didn't make it sound emergent. My guess is that these students have really not had training in MAYDAY procedures and RIT ops, so if not, how would they know when to call a MAYDAY?
I am not a fan of using new or fairly new firefighters as RIT members. They don't have the training, skills, or experience to do the job properly. But a conundrum appears, if they shouldn't do it because they don;t have the experience, where do they get the experience?
To answer this, you only have to look as far as those training situations you have instructed in. When teaching a fire academy or FF1, FF2 cert courses, there is a RIT team along with the attack and backup. Typically ther may be a MAYDAY scenario where the RIT team is deployed and can be evaluated. However, if a REAL situation were to occur, instructors would become the RIT team.
There is a difference in training with your own dept and understanding procedures and another is training with multiple depts with differing procedures. MAYDAY and RIT instructions should be made clear, and often are. I just question if they really were given the fact there were jr FF's involved in this training who probably don't have such training.
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Permalink Reply by samuel Potter on
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Yes, this evolution was mostly desiged for the green ff. Each team did consist on at least one experenced 1403 ff to ensure safty. The rit team consisted of three 1403 ff and my self. The enviromet was not hazardous but without scba was hard to breath in. As far as myself i am green and I am fairly new (going on my second year) I was put as a member of the rit team as to learn the position and gain a beter understanding of fireground opps as a whole. I will be soon coming off of my junor status and for this reason, I am constantly roatated into new positions as to gain experence. The point of this thread was not necessarily to debate this instant alone but to bring about discussion indivual departments sop and and possably shared wisdom from more experenced ff.
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Permalink Reply by Dave on
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It sounds like they handled the event well. People have to remember that when you call a mayday all ears perk up. As firefighters we all want to help, its just who we are. Sadly, some will stop there important jobs to help...IE Venting, advancing handlines, throwing ground ladders. Dont have to tell you all that when this jobs are interupted it can and will cause more harm. If the truck company stops venting, the engine may never get to the seat of the fire, the fire is free burning and then the rit process is hampered by the lack of all the other work that must be done.
Rit is an important job, but will only be successful if the fire is controlled and ventilation is complete. As for the crew makeup, in a perfect world all memebers of the rit team will be made of super heros.....Not gonna happen! Not all engine and ladder companies are equal. A engine company that does 6 fires a year will not be equal to the engine that does 200....it is just the way it is. Your rit team maybe made of 30 year vets ot 30 day FFOPs...both have there draw backs. The Best Rit rescue....is self rescue!
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Permalink Reply by Kevin Hatfield on
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I wrote that wrong ... it is the other way around
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