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Making The Stretch: Why "Rip and Run" Doesn't Work
Grabbing the pipe, a fold and running like a bat out of hell will almost guarantee that the second due will have your fire.
The following video is from Delta, British Columbia, Canada. Let me preface this by stating this is not a condemnation of the members depicted or the department as a whole. No fire department or fireground operation is perfect. We can all learn from each other.
I'm not certain, but it looks like there are three lines coming off this engine at one time, by one firefighter. Maybe they have a certain hoseload that is unique to their response area. If you're from Delta Fire, give us a shout; we'd like to hear about it and learn from you. One thing is certain though, there's a mess in the middle, and it required the nozzleman to leave the nozzle and fix the problem.
When we pull our attack lines, one of the main reasons why we might have a problem is because we rush. A second reason is because the hose was repacked wrong and/or sloppy. No matter if you use a flat load or the minuteman, grabbing the hose wrong will cause it to come off wrong, or flake out wrong. What you end up with is spaghetti somewhere between the wagon and the fire building.
By the time you get it straightened out, the second due will thank you.
Check your beds.
Photo courtesy of author.
Read more of Backstep Firefighter and others at FireEMSBlogs.com.
The following video is from Delta, British Columbia, Canada. Let me preface this by stating this is not a condemnation of the members depicted or the department as a whole. No fire department or fireground operation is perfect. We can all learn from each other.
I'm not certain, but it looks like there are three lines coming off this engine at one time, by one firefighter. Maybe they have a certain hoseload that is unique to their response area. If you're from Delta Fire, give us a shout; we'd like to hear about it and learn from you. One thing is certain though, there's a mess in the middle, and it required the nozzleman to leave the nozzle and fix the problem.
When we pull our attack lines, one of the main reasons why we might have a problem is because we rush. A second reason is because the hose was repacked wrong and/or sloppy. No matter if you use a flat load or the minuteman, grabbing the hose wrong will cause it to come off wrong, or flake out wrong. What you end up with is spaghetti somewhere between the wagon and the fire building.
By the time you get it straightened out, the second due will thank you.
Check your beds.
Photo courtesy of author.
Read more of Backstep Firefighter and others at FireEMSBlogs.com.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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It's not just generic "training" that does the job. It is specific, targeted, repetitive training that meets specific objectives. (I sound like a training officer, don't I)
That includes practicing specific hose deployment techniques for the specific loads carried on your apparatus.
In our case, we standardized our apparatus, hose loads, and nozzles so that we minimize the variation in hose stretches. That makes training more efficient and easier to make objective targets and it also makes it easier to have good hose deployment when firefighters are working another company for the shift.
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Permalink Reply by capcityff on
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You can't always standardize though. Our companies are different around the city. In a large city you have a lot more structures. Downtown companies that have nothing but high rises are going to operate differently than uptown companies with mixed use buildings who operate differently than residential areas in the hood who operate differently than residential areas in the nice neighborhoods. Tactics differ depending on where you are.
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I agree that tactics differ with the types of construction and the geographical area, but it's possible to have a standardized hose bed layout and hose loads that accomodate the different possibilities regardless of what a specific company's 1st due looks like.
For example, FDNY has probably the most diverse structure types of any FD in America, and they have pretty standardized hose bed designs, hose loads, and homogenized fire attack methodology. It works pretty well for them. The same is true for quite a few other big city departments.
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We still have them set up similarly but you should still ask when detailed to other companies about the length of the lines. Some have a 350' 1 1/2" on the rear left where others might have a 400'. Some compartments may be set up differently as well. The company can do whatever they want. It's THEIR piece. They are the ones riding it every day. If someone comes from another company then it's their responsibility to learn about it.
They FDNY isn't much different. DC and NY actually work very closely together for many things. NY does have many different types of structures. Is it different than most big cities though? Not really. We all have the same buildings on the east coast. They just have more of them.
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"The company can do whatever they want. It's THEIR piece." Interesting. I thought it was the city's piece.
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Does the city put out the fires or do the firemen? You see in some larger cities we have this thing called "company pride". If we want our own nozzles or want to load the hose a certain way, we do it. There are no rules against it and it is helping us do the job better. I'm sure that's what the residents care about. EVERY large city is like that. That's why they have their own company patches, their own shirts, their own websites, etc. You don't even work for a large city department so I don't know why you would make a comment like that. I'm pretty sure you may have known what I was talking about in the first place but you decided to take the most literal meaning of what was said just for the sake of arguing.
John- Exactly what I did when I read it. Some people just don't understand.
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Permalink Reply by Bill Carey on
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Folks, do we really need to one-up each other on this? As written earlier, we use what is tried and proven to work for us in our working environment; we meaning you, me and everyone else.
Standardization helps as well as little features a company might decide to implement.
The post illustrates that no matter what your unique specifics or general standardizations are frequent training is key to a successful fire attack. Positioning as well as either an extra member and/or slowing down a little might have helped, maybe.
As far as the belief and comments about the 400' line, I disagree that lack of staffing is the reason why it gets stretched wrong. In my area I've seen quite a few companies, mine included, use three and sometimes two members to stretch the line and do it correctly. Is it done fast? No however it reaches the fire without problems, and if not, the second due engine company steps in to assist (usually due to notification that the first-due is understaffed). How the 400' line is packed also adds to easy deployment.
In my travels, I've found six-man engine companies that can tangle up a bumper line.
Bill Carey
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Permalink Reply by Norm Tindell on
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Bill, we use what we call the "triple lay," which is probably the same as the "triple pack" referred to earlier. Training is certainly the key because it takes discipline to get the pack to flake off a little at a time. When a guy gets in a hurry and gets sloppy he tends to want to drop the pack prematurely. We encourage the guys to walk away from the fire intially, then turn back toward the fire after flaking out some of the line. Sure saves a lot of additional work. We're fortunate also that we use only 200' preconnects rather than 400.
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capcity,
I used to work for two different large departments, so I understand very well how it works.
"Does the city put out fires or do the firemen?" That's not really pertinent to the discussion. The city, through its management, has the right to standardize the rigs if they wish. If they want to make an engine in a primarily residential district carry high-rise packs, then they have the right to do it.
Your department may choose to do it differently, but quite a few big cities do standardize the rigs in the interests of flexibility, simplifying operations, and standardizing training and operations department-wide.
Thats a smart thing to do.
The company patches, company t-shirts, etc. is also not really germaine to the discussion. My department lets the companies have company t-shirts - they just aren't for on-duty wear because we wear our assigned uniforms. We also have company identifiers that get moved over if the company changes rigs - the formal company number identifiers and the informal ones, which are large window clings that go in the front jumpseat windows. None of that has the slightest bearing on fighting fire or on how the hose is loaded.
After all the city taxpayers are the ones who pay for the rig. If the FD management wants to standardize operations, they have the right to do that.
I also find it curious that you'd claim that I'm arguing just for the sake of arguing and then that I don't understand in the same post. Actually, it's neither. I understand fully, and I firmly believe that it's a lot smarter to have the operational flexibility that standardized rigs and hose loads give you. That's based on the fact that there are big incidents that pull companies far, far away from their first due and those companies have to be ready for that. In comparison, Staten Island companies might not respond to, say, Manhatten Island all that often, but they're expected to be set up to do the job when it's required. That's a smart way to operate.
Company pride is fine, but your department hasn't cornered the market on it. My department has it too. However, company pride shouldn't get in the way of being able to do what's best for all of the taxpayers, not just those in your first due.
"Every large city is like that." I question that. St. Louis standardized a long time ago when they went to the all-quint concept. There are several other large city departments that standardize, and that have outlying engine companies set up exactly like the downtown engines that respond to high-rise and mid-rise fires.
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I still don't think you understand. We all carry what we are required. We all have high rise racks and the minimum amount of hose. However we do what we want beyond that. If we want 400' instead of 350, we will do that. WE are the ones that use it. If I'm working downtown, I'm sure I'll find little things here and there to make my job easier and will customize my rig to do so. If it makes the run more efficient then why not? If we put OUR house fund together(our money not the taxpayers) to buy new racks or nozzles or maybe an extra halligan bar, there's no problem in that. It doesn't mean that an engine from uptown wouldn't be able to do their job. I really don't see any argument that could stand against that.
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I agree on the "triple pack". (We use it extensively and call it "triple stack" here.)
It is a little complicated to pack compared to simple flat loads, but it has the advantage that it only takes 1/3 of the entire stretch to get all of the hose clear of the bed. If you have a 200-foot preconnect, it only takes about 65 feet to get all of the hose on the ground. When you get to the 1/3 distance, just drop the loop and continue advancing the nozzle.
We also use break-apart nozzles, so if additional hose is needed, we can just shut the bail, take off the fog tip, and add a 100-foot high rise bundle for additional line. That's not a usual go-to initial attack option, but it works.
We used to use a modified Minuteman load (100 foot flat loaded on the bottom with 100 feet of Minuteman on the top) which has the advantage that the top half is a carry, rather than a drag. However, it was more complicated to handle and it really only works when pulled from one side of the engine, so we went away from it.
We also use horseshoe loads for our bumper lines, as it reduces the number of sharp bends in the hose and prolongs hose life.
Our 2.5 inch lines are also in triple stack - a blitz line with a take-apart nozzle and a leader line with a gated wye.
The only flat load we carry are our 5-inch supply lines and our bed of extra 2.5 inch.
We also carry our high rise packs in horseshoe loads, then bundled in Milwaukee straps.
We have hose jigs to make it easy to pack the high rise lines the same way every time.
We actually use the high rise packs more for setbacks and boat/marina fires than for high rises, but they work for big boxes, high rises, or other long stretches or standpipes equally well.
We usually only have 2 or 3 firefighters making the stretch, so the hose loads must come out cleanly and be smoothly deployed.
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capcity, you're mistaking disagreement for misunderstanding.
Another advantage that standardized apparatus gives the department is that the company's engine is whatever rig they're in until they swap the next time for PM or whatever. That means that if you customize something on your rig and it goes in for PM, then someone else will get the rig when it comes out of PM.
That level of customization reduces out-of-service times for apparatus swaps, standardizes driver training, and a few other things that give the taxpayers more value for the same money, time, and effort.
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