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I have been watching some of the postings on here by the less than literate junior members lately. I have also seen some of the "I want to be a firefighter types" post some ridiculous things on here. These discussions inevitably turn into the "learn to spell" or "shut-up and learn" conversations. I am not saying I have not participated in them either. But, is there some way to limit the posting capabilities of members? What if the junior members were only able to post in the junior area? Or, what if they were not allowed on here at all? I am sure that they can figure out a way to get around any sort of age requirement for membership, they are a little smarter than that. But, if they start posting immature crap, turn off their capability to post at all. They can still learn an awful lot with a read-only account.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Jack/dt on
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Ben,
What do you think you should be allowed to do? If you've read any of the comments you'll realize that the fireground is NOT the place for juniors, regardless of what other juniors may think or say. It is an emergency response working situation, how exactly does having a minor fit in with the mission statement of life and property preservation?
Given that in the last couple of days there have been two incidents where juniors were hurt, one with a critically burned 16 year old that was working interior it should point out the very real danger or a working scene. You really think minors should be involved in them?
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Permalink Reply by Ben "Batman" Barry on
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I do admit there are places a junior shold not be allowed. The only fire I have been on I stayed at the rehab area 500 ft away from the attack engine. Explorers should be allowed to respond to a certain point. EMS runs MVAs minor calls would be suitable for us to learn. Anything that would put us in a IDLH situation would be not acceptable for us to go to. We shou;ld be able to do lights duties such as rehab and tool pick up. I have never done anything nor will I do anything dangerous until properly trained. I know in my department if an explorer is caught doing something dangerous it is grounds for removal. If explorers do light duties on calls that frees up trained firefighters for other more dangerous tasks.
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You have to understand that there are adults that freelance, do what they choose to do without being assigned to it and without command or anyone else knowing where they are or what they're doing. So imagine a more "impulsive" person on the fireground, what guaranty is there that they will stay put, and who is going to watch them?
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Permalink Reply by Jason Brooks on
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First, check your spelling. You left yourself open for that one!
The reason that there is an uproar about the Juniors/Explorers on here is this very simple fact. They post without looking for the answer to their question first. Most of the time the question they are trying to answer has already been discussed. If the juniors/explorers would like to pose questions to the group great, but make them logical and informed. The vast majority of us are on here to swap ideas and learn from each other. We do not care what is on your helmet or in your pockets. We do not care how many lights are on your car and do not care that you are upset because you feel slighted as a junior member.
That being said, we were all newbies at one time or another. Some, longer than they care to remember. Or, can't due to long term smoke inhalation. But, there is a large portion of the membership that thinks that this is a valuable site and could be a very good learning tool. So, if you want to ask a question, ask away. But, if you get flamed for your spelling, irrelevance, lack of searching first, or just plain dumb questions, deal with it. By firing back, it further emphasizes the immaturity of the original poster.
FYI, this is not aimed at you directly. The word you, is used as a generic term.
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You do have a point. The person would have to be trusted to stay where told. I know it can be hard for some people, and the people that can not be trusted just do not respond to any calls. What there should be in every department is just like with the adult members, explorers should be cleared by advisors and the chief before responding.
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Permalink Reply by Mike Schlags (Captain Busy) Retd on
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no offense here Ben but unless you are over the age of 18, you have no business even being on the fireground.
what really surprised me more than the firefighting issues is the use of explorers for mop-up. this is the most dangerous part of a fire. unburned radicals are released from things that were burned (products of combustion). these 'things' are a myriad of compounds ranging from cyanide to hydrocarbons... and then some... things combine and create all sorts of nasty things that are known carcinogens. take a young person now who is not done growing and you face the potential to cause an insult to millions of multi-dividing cells that are going nuts in teenagers bodies. these chemical insults manifest themselves years later as various cancers and health related issues.
this whole thing is nuts and adults should take care of their children, allowing them the chance to live a long and healthy life. what might have been cool as far as volunteer fire department allowing children to participate is no longer an acceptable practice in my opinion. things that burn today inside a structure are much different than things that caught fire 40 years ago. plastics and synthetic materials create a much more dangerous and toxic atmosphere for first responders dealing the fires.
you have to look at a structure fire and the foundation that we always promise to save as being a key part of the problem. sounds weird doesn't it? as the concrete cools, and it is porous just like your skin, the unburned radical chemicals that were vaporized in the fire, settled to lower points and permeated the concrete as a result are released into the air.
without full PPE including a SCBA, humans in this environment are being exposed to very dangerous levels of chemical exposure.
so let me get this straight... some folks out there are willing to put children into this type of environment? and it's ok because they have a signed note from the parents and the fire chief?
this is very, very wrong and should not be tolerated. we know better through science and OSHA laws. not protecting children from getting injured from inhalation, ingestion, absorption or even injection (4-entry paths for hazardous materials) is unacceptable. just discussing toxic exposures alone and putting the word 'child' in the same sentence makes me shudder. the television is filled today with commercials about how we need to save the polar bears... I think we need to save our own first.
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Capt, I think the only way to get them to change their mind, is to allow adults to be explorers. Then it would be so uncool that they would all leave and the problem would be solved.
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Permalink Reply by Art "ChiefReason" Goodrich on
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I hear ya Jack.
Ever since I mentioned the kind of music and some of the bands that I like, sales of music industry wide is off like 20%.
I've always said that I was a Toys-R-Us kid. I could relate to the explorers.
But, who would mentor me?
TCSS.
Art
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You are right, explorers should not be used for any interior ops. In CT if a dept. is found to have done that OSHA and the dept of labor get involoved. and parents and a chief especially my parents and chief would never under any circumstances willingly or knowingly put an untrained underage explorer in a dangerous situation.
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Troy, I am truly sorry that you feel aggravated about being told to spell things right and to take the time to just listen in... Actually, I am not sorry in the least. Illiterate firefighters might have been cool years ago, but in today's competitive market, there is no room for folks who can't take the time to pay attention to detail, which includes taking pride in what you post.
After reading your posts, you are far from illiterate and are actually quite well spoken. You also are very committed to the job, noting your involvement in participating on a design committee for apparatus at your department and doing so as a Junior. So your post does not really match up with the type of person you appear to be...
With that said, I have to make note that I have not seen a single junior post questions for some of the posts that I have place on FFN recently. Having not had one single response or question from a Junior or explorer leads me to believe that for the most part, juniors and explorers are here on the FFN for one purpose, social, not firefighting... The types of things I have been posting lately are pure fire stuff.
My most recent post focused on how we fight garage fires in SFD's. Two firefighters were burned doing truck company OPS on a residential fire. Where's the comments that you noted were so necessary? Where's the interaction between firefighters and juniors you stated were so important? Guess what Troy. They very rarely exist and to date, not a single one of my posts have had questions or comments from anyone but the more seasoned firefighters on the FFN site. Perhaps you might break the mold and set the tone for Juniors to follow? If I don't know the answer, I will do my best to find out the answer and get back to you!
We are in two different worlds and the reason why the older more seasoned firefighters want you to chill out and listen is because there is very little effort on the part of the younger firefighters to contribute. I could be wrong here, and I have been in the past but I am going purely on what I have seen posted and commented on by juniors and explorers. My assumption here is that there is just not enough training and education yet for your age group to truly be a peer with the firefighters on this or any website.
And now we have a couple of incidents where young folks under the age of 18 were on scene at incidents and were injured in the process which I still find totally unbelievable that an adult would put a child in harms way.
When you read about the firefighters in Wisconsin tackling a dumpster fire with 10-17 firefighters did you question the judgement and decision factors? To not ask questions, to not seek out the necessary expertise as to what could be done when you respond to a dumpster fire at an aluminum casting company, well... the point I am trying to make here is that this is a profession and a trade. An incredible amount of education is needed to be successful doing this gig.
And just for the record, putting water on a dumpster fire at a facility that deals with aluminum casting would not be my first choice of action and it's not backed up by any of the emergency response guides. The fire believe it or not would have gone out without water by simply knocking the trash can on it's side, allowing the aluminum metal to come into contact with air.
Aluminum oxide is formed on the outside of the aluminum and the fire goes out. Period. Now mix the aluminum (and possibly shavings or fragments) with iron rust and you get something called Thermite which is an incendiary that burns at around 2900˚F. Any water put on this type of fire will immediately vaporize the water, releasing hydrogen and oxygen, hence the chance of an explosion... We will have to wait for the NIOSH report to come out to find out exactly what caused the fire. The things that seem commonplace are typically the things that can bite you.
But what would I know... I'm just a 30+ year Hazmat Fire Captain who gets pissed off when someone without enough experience to have an opinion wants to be treated like an equal without having to jump through the same hoops I did...
The only way to really learn this job is to ask questions, watch, look and listen. As a teacher and professional, I am always willing to answer questions, help folks to not make the same mistakes I did and all time remembering my favorite saying, "It's nice to be important but it's more important to be nice".
TCSS, CBz
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Here is another suggestion to add to my original post. If anyone, not just Juniors, start to post absolutely ridiculous or inflammatory coments regularly, suspend their posting ability for a week. Then two weeks, etc. After the third suspsenion, they get booted and have to start over. I am sure that is what would happen anyhow.
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