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ISO - Incident Safety Officer Hot Seat - What do you see and do on this job?
So you have been assigned to the Safety Officer's Position, what concerns do you have with the following example?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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What Jack said.
Not only that, you don't need an app to figure out the required fire flow for this structur on the fly. The National Fire Academy formula (W x L, divided by 3) will give you good approsimation of your flow needs.
You don't need the complexity or risk of technology failure inherent in apps for this one.
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Permalink Reply by Cory on
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The apps are cool things but they aren't practical for real life situations. When you pull up to a fire you should be able to figure out right away what you need you shouldn't need an app for that. Use the app for practice when you are out training to help your decision making for when you do get a fire because when you pull up to a fire the last thing you have time for is to pull out your phone and start typing. I know how much my iPhone would cost to replace and I sure don't want to mess it up on the fire ground! Lol
This looks like from this picture to me a like an attic fire. Also it looks like a small house. I would have my guys go in but I would try to make sure the trip hazards where moved.
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Permalink Reply by WestPhilly on
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Cory,
You're not the only one to mention these "trip hazards", so I'm not zeroing in on you, but I'd like you to consider the implications of your last statement. What I get out of it is that you would be willing to commit your guys to an interior attack on a dwelling that is just waiting to collapse on top of them, as long as they don't trip and fall on the way in. I'm thinking the trip hazards are all but irrelevant.
Also - as Jack has hinted at - some people are commenting on what can't possibly be known based on this photograph (no RIT and no additional lines). For all we know they might have this place surrounded with RITs and lines. Who knows?
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Permalink Reply by FETC on
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If you noted the trip hazards, OK, I see that. Did you note they created all of them? They didn't enter through the doorway? They forced entry through the right side window, after they knocked over the plant/pot and what you see on the ground is from the window dressings.
I am amazed that there isn't more concern from what is happening above the hoseline.
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Permalink Reply by Mike Schlags (Captain Busy) Retd on
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now that you mention it FETC, is is painfully obvious that they created the hazards and aren't using the door? it's too subjective for me to know whether they were cognizant of the overhead things because the next photo frame could show them both looking up. the good news I think is that they are at least pushing the involved into the uninvolved...
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Fire that has consumed most of the roof support system had or has a significant BTU thermal insult on the structure. Working underneath (from the inside) under the remaining roof is asking for trouble. Not too mention did this insult, have any effect on the first floor's "floor support system" or it's structural integrity?
Hope not or you might find yourself looking up from the basement floor as the fire is consuming you and your buddy.
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Permalink Reply by Alan Jacobson on
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I agree -- that's the formula. And if you didn't know that formula, you could easily have found it on the Firefighter Calculator. Just as many carry plastic cards on them for easy reference -- the new generation of firefighters will train with technology.
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You mean there's more than just pumping until the crosslay isn't too hard and using initial operating pressures until told to either take down the pressure or increase it?
I can certainly see the benefit of technology with preplanning things that need formulas but on the fireground, I'm not sure how using a handheld PDA or smartphone will be a possibility. Ever try making a call wearing gloves?
And plastic cards are for rookies... your suppose to memorize the formulas, and do the fire hydraulics in your head if you are a competent Fire Engineer. We are not talking rocket science here... If things get really complicated, multiple hose lays, relay pumping, monitors, multiple stories and using foam, all with one engine... ha ha ha... I could see using a program on the fireground maybe, and it would be the engineer standing at the pump panel, and more than likely not wearing gloves...
CBz
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Permalink Reply by bridge on
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I would be concerned that the fire is already self venting from the roof which would lead to believe collapse is likely to occur. And so I would want it to be exterior operation.
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You are zeroing in on me it's ok lol j/k I wouldn't care if you are, but I should have made mention along with irons we would have had a hook to check the situation out. I would have to imagine without having a photo that the ceiling already collapsed since most of the trusses are gone. Now if I would have walked to the door and seen that the ceiling had not collapsed then I would not be going in because of course the ceiling will eventually come in.
I wouldn't put guys into a situation I wouldn't go into, as you stated you can't possibly know what the situation is out side of the picture because you could also is the a rural Dept with the guys ghost pumping it and is it just those couple of guys? What size is there tank? 500, 750, 1000, 2000? Do they have an established water source?
Is there going to be a collapse of the ceiling if there hasn't been one yet? No doubt, but if there has already been one I believe if done right they can go in and put the fire out. Wish there was more or a bigger photo of what the situation is.
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Permalink Reply by Todd on
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It's hard to really tell from the picture, but it appears to me that there has already been a collapse of the trusses in the area right above where they are making entry. If it has indeed already collapsed then that has eliminated that concern, although now you have to worry about the obstacles for advancing the line. You do, however, have to worry about surrounding areas collapsing, so the crews will need to remain in the already collapsed area or run the risk of being cut off.
I would have serious issues with the entry point being the smaller window rather than the adjacent larger door. We have been in that position before where there were circumstances that made taking the window the better option than forcing the door, but we only used the window to gain access to the inside of the door, then opened the door and advanced the line in that way. If things go bad quick that window is going to be choke point for folks trying to egress the building rapidly.
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Permalink Reply by Jack/dt on
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Todd,
Not trying to be a dick here, but if we're looking at the same picture, there are no trusses. It's a standard framed roof, ~6 pitch, 2x8 rafters. LONG burn through time so this fire has been working for a while.
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