The Social Network & Community JUST for Firefighters
IAFF Condemns Tennessee House Fire Policy
TODD FAULKNER
WPSD
Reprinted with Permission
PADUCAH - A local fire department's decision to let a home burn is attracting national attention and sparking national debate.
A firefighters group is lashing out against members of their own. The International Association of Fire Fighters is condemning the South Fulton Fire Department for their actions last week.
Fire crews refused to put out a house fire in Obion County, Tennessee, because the owner did not pay the $75 coverage fee. The Association's general president released a statement Tuesday on the city's policy of subscription fire service.
The IAFF statement reads, in part, "We condemn South Fulton's ill-advised, unsafe policy. Professional, career fire fighters shouldn't be forced to check a list before running out the door to see which homeowners have paid up. They get in their trucks and go."
The statement also reads, "Because of South Fulton's pay-to-play policy, fire fighters were ordered to stand and watch a family lose its home."
Todd Cranick, son of Gene Cranick, tells Local 6 that his parents have received several thousand dollars from the insurance company to cover immediate costs. Cranick went on to say that the insurance plans on covering all damage and property losses. Right now, there is no fund set up to help the Cranick family.
The IAFF is headquartered in Washington, D.C., representing nearly 300,000 full-time professional firefighters and paramedics.
Replies to This Discussion
-
Permalink Reply by Herb Genelly III on
-
You're not actually suggesting that loans referred to as LIARS Loans, or NINJa (no income,no job)' didn't happen? Are you that thick?
-
Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
-
Herb,
You make two mutually exclusive statements then try to weasel out of it by claiming that it's just "semantics" .
If I sign a contract to make a car payment with an auto dealer, is that a "tax"?
If I sign a contract to have a contractor clean my house, is that a tax?
If I sign a contract for internet service, is that a tax?
If I sign a contract for water and sewer service, is that a tax?
Those are rhetorical, Herb. The answer to all of them is "No, they're a contract for services." Guess what, Herb. When an individual property owner in Obion County, Tennessee signs a contract for fire protection services, it's not a tax.
Taxes are applied on an involuntary manner to all residents of a given jurisdiction, based on some formula.
Obion county has NO fire taxes. It's been stated over and over. South Fulton doesn't have the power or the legal right to levy taxes outside their city limits.
So...the offer the option of an individual fee-for-service contract to the people who want their services and don't provide services to those who don't want them.
It's not just semantics.
And yes, when I pay my fire taxes, it's involuntary. I either pay them or I have a lien placed on my home. It doesn't work that way in Obion County. If county residents near South Fulton don't pay their subscription fee, no one places a lien on their home. The only downside occurs if they actually have a fire.
Herb, that was actually pretty insightful. Your example of my fire district actually supports my argument and opposes yours.
Thank you.
And then you had to go and ruin it with one of your echolalic ad hominem attacks. Were you aware that those are in violation of the FFN user agreement, Herb? If I had a thinner skin, you'd likely have a lot fewer surviving posts.
-
-
Definitnion of "Contract"
"An agreement between two or more parties, especially one that is written and enforceable by law."
Definition of Tax
"A contribution for the support of a government required of persons, groups, or businesses within the domain of that government."
The South Fulton subscriptions meet the definition of "contract".
They do not meet the definition of tax, because the Obion County citizens reside outside South Fulton's "domain" and South Fulton has no tax levy power there.
Only Obion County can levy taxes outside the city limits of the municipalities, including South Fulton. That makes South Fulton the contract fire protection provider for their subscribers in the county, not a taxing authority.
-
-
Ben,
What is it exactly that you don't understand about semantics? The live audio broadcast conducted a few days ago addressed this very subject. And the authorities on the subject made my VERY assertion. In this very case, a subscription is in lieu of a tax, because they have now way of collecting a tax outside the city limits.
-
-
Herb, that is fallacious.
I provided contrasting and mutually exclusive, linked dictionary definitions illustrating the defined differences between a contract and a tax. You have provided exactly zero evidence to the contrary.
In fact, you have provided evidence that debunks your own point, because you now made the statement "In this very case, a subscription is in lieu of a tax..." and for the second time this afternoon.
A payment can't be both a "tax" and "a subscription in lieu of a tax". The two things are mutually exclusive.
I didn't buy a car in lieu of a car, and the people in Obion County don't pay a tax in lieu of a tax.
Who is "they"? There are at least two different governmental entity "theys" - Obion County and the City of South Fulton -involved here. Who are "the authorities"? The City of South Fulton government? The City of South Fulton Fire Chief? The Union City Fire Chief? Someone from Obion County government?
I understand the concept of semantics quite well, thanks.
That concept is not valid when their are dictionary discriptions of the differences between a contract and a subscription.
If Obion County hypothetically forces a fire tax on their residents in the future and calls it a "subscription" then they are the ones with the mistaken semantics, because it will be a tax.
It will NOT, however, be the same thing as the individual contract subscriptions that are currently paid by SOME of the Obion County residents directly to the City of South Fulton without any county involvement whatsoever.
One other thing - if it's not "bunk" then it by definition can't be debunked. Since I've been able to debunk your claims, there's a logical inferrence...
-
-
So Ben, because they have NO way of paying tax to receive services , how could it get done? In this case, they have to pay a Fee to get services. Call it what you want, but it is a tax.
-
Permalink Reply by M.J. 6821 on
-
Since the county is not in charge of the fire department they can't cancel them unless LE does it but since there wasn't even LE on scene and no one even showed up to investigate the call they don't have a say.
Heres another question for you Ben I know its a what if but it is a valid point. Lets say a passerby calls 911 as a good intention call and does not give an exact address but the general area, does a fire dept. have to respond since they don't know if the property is a subscriber or not. And once they are on scene do they have to act?
-
-
MJ, I'm not sure on that one - it's a good question.
Based on what has been said about how South Fulton handles life safety issues, it is likely that they'd respond, and that unless they were SURE that the property was a non-subscriber, they'd extinguish the fire.
If there's a question about their duty to act or not, the safe thing to do would be to err on the side of taking action, but my answer is just a guess.
-
-
Thats one of the big problems I see with this whole subscription issue esp with 911 calls from cell phones.
The problem is there is no fool proof way for funding of fire dept. Even with taxes there are issues when it comes time to buy apparatus most govt. bodies don't want to spend that money I just wish the fire boards could see everything we do just not the little show and tell we give them when we ask for more money we try to show them more but most just don't get it.
-
-
That is echolalic.
As you have already admitted at least twice today, the subscribers pay a contract fee in lieu of a tax. That's like saying that I took my kid to a hockey game in lieu of a baseball game, but that we still went to a baseball game.
It is categorically NOT a tax, because the city of South Fulton HAS NO TAXATION AUTHORITY outside their city limits. It is impossible for them to charge a tax there, because the people who live outside the city limit don't fall under South Fulton's authority.
You can deny that reality all you want, but continued denial is delusional.
How can it get done - by a large number of individual subscription CONTRACTS between the City of South Fulton and individual property owners who live outside the city limits and outside the area where South Fulton has the ability to levy taxes.
The lack of ability to levy taxes equals NO TAXES.
South Fulton provides public-sector fire services within the city limits.
South Fulton provides private/public partnership fire protection in the county. They are structured differently and they are funded differently, so the funding method isn't the same, no matter how much you insist that apples and oranges are the same.
Your inability to understand the distinction doesn't invalidate that distinction.
Not all costs to citizens are taxes. Please educate yourself instead of arguing with me.
-
-
I suggested way early in this debate that the cities in Obion County change their policy to either a subscription up front or a huge suppression fee on the back side for their county subscribers.
That would take care of the "suppression or not" question, and it would add - at least a little - to each department's revenues without the need to start up a mega-costly county fire department that they probably can't afford.
-
-
I was doing a little research on this whole thing and I want you to take a look at this it seems that it might solve the problem.
http://wapp.capitol.tn.gov/apps/BillInfo/Default.aspx?BillNumber=SB...
© 2024 Created by Firefighter Nation WebChief.
Powered by
