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How far and how much can you get out of a volunteer?
I attended a class to be certified as Instructor I last week. They were complaining that enrollment was way down in the state classes. They ask what we thought they were were thinking the economy. I know what is going on and tried to make them understand.
Here in Indiana they are putting more and more to get though and pass the states classes. They always say not everybody is cut out to be a firefighter. I agree with that statement but I see more and more volunteers just getting mandatory and not going farther. If your career it may add pay or advance your career. But where is the motive for a volunteer?
I took a drivers op class it was free. My chief ask me why do I want to go though all that when I can drive and pump the trucks. I hear this all the time and not just from my dept. I have more certs than all but one officer on my dept and I am one away from him. I am still a just a firefighter so why should I try there is no advancement in it for me and don't think there will be for a long time. I don't care if I am an officer I am self motivated and gun ho, But most are not.
I see what the state wants but when most of the area is covered by vollies how much can they get. I believe there has to be a happy medium. Or training will stop at the bare minimum. I think thats the opposite of what they want. I believe they are wanting better trained fire depts not less trained.
I don't know if this post shows what I am tring to say correctly. Its hard to explain what I am tring to say. I am not really against the new stuff but how far can they go before it blows up in there face and hurts more than it helps.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Joseph West on
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Well, I agree with you as far as training goes. I'm only volunteer, I don't get paid a dime for anything, not even pay on call. Don't get me wrong, that's 100% ok with me, I didn't join for money. However, I will be glad to take any classes and every cert. I can get. I know there are some firefighters out there who probably hate training and stuff. I love it, it's honestly the best part of my week. I love to learn new things, and I love fighting fire. At the same time I understand perfectly what your saying. Also, I think alot of guys are only in it for the title and tags. They figure, well for me to walk around and say I'm a firefighter and have a firefighter tag, this is all I have to do, just the bare minimum. And for people who's hearts really aren't in it, for people like that, it would take money like a normal paying job to get them out there.
Its just hard to find truly dedicated people out there, who are willing to work that hard without a cash reward. I know I hear it alot, I'm sure alot of you other guys have heard it too. I can't count the people who come up to me and said, "man why do you go out there, work that hard, put your life on the line, for nothing? I wouldn't do that hard of work for nothing." Well, I feel sorry for people who think that way, I may not be getting paid cash, however I do feel rewarded, every time I leave a fire call or wreck knowing I helped save someone's life or property is enough for me. But, alot of people just don't/wont ever understand what that's like.
That's why I feel like the people who are in a volunteer department "Some NOT All", if they turn down free training and certs., to me it seams like that person just isn't that into it. I personally would never turn down and opportunity to learn something new, that could help me save a life tomorrow.
Well, some of you may not agree with what I said here, some of you may. Some of you who don't agree, are probably some of the people I'm talking about. Don't get me wrong, there are some people who turn them down for other reasons, family, work, personal matters, or whatever. I'm talking about the ones sitting around doing nothing with their time, not really supporting a family. The ones who simply don't do it, cause they have time but they don't have to. That's the ones I'm talking about.
Sincerely,
J. West | Huntsville Fire Rescue #81
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Permalink Reply by John Dobson on
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Well as of today I am a Instructor I. So I will find a way to inspire my guys to train. Failure is not an option to me.
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Permalink Reply by Jack/dt on
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Rachel,
What exactly were you (and your parents) expecting? The Chief to wave his hand over you and pronounce you firefighters? The reality is, firefighting is NOT for everyone. Gladly gone are the days when someone joined, was given gear and was proclaimed a firefighter. That's how people got killed (and still do).
The 250 minimum for FFI, while it may put a crimp into someone's personal life for a bit, is the required minimum to SAFELY become a probie firefighter. Whether or not FFII is required (and I believe it should be) it at least gives a person a solid foundation to work from. With competent leadership (always iffy in a volunteer department) one can be a capable firefighter. But if a person wants to become an officer, then there should be many more requirements, along with appropriate experience.
If you haven't learned yet you will, that today's fires are hotter, faster and more deadly than ever. Combine that with new lightweight construction materials and techniques and houses flashover and collapse faster than ever before. NOT a place for someone that has little or no training.
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John,
What it appears to me that you're saying is, "What training is essential for today's volunteer firefighters?" To that I would answer NFPA 1001, as a minimum. NFPA 1001 outlines the minimum skills needed for interior firefighters (the only kind, in my opinion). I do not see it as backbreaking for someone to have take FFI/FFII to become a qualified firefighter. Regardless of the short term impact it may have on a person's life and family it is necessary to ensure that everyone is trained to a minimum skill level, with the minimum knowledge to work a fire. Beyond that, it falls on the leadership to make sure that standards are made and kept. In other words, ONGOING TRAINING.
Agreed that there are a lot of classes, both classroom and practical that can be taken. The key here is to make available the ones that your department deems necessary. If you don't have a ladder truck then there's no need for ladder ops. If you're area is hydranted then you don't have to worry about water shuttles. If the most you have are 2 story residentials then high rise ops isn't necessary.
Most important is training. You need to have your people training on the bread and butter jobs that you have in your area. Sure HazMat response may come your way and your people should be Haz Mat operational but you don't need them to be techs (unless you have specific industries in your area, and then you train for them.)
Many of the responses to your post agree that people should be taking as much training as they can but let's be realistic, some people are perpetual students and love ongoing education/training. Those people should be taking Instructor I/II classes and train the trainer programs so that when they do go out for training, they are qualified and capable of bringing that knowledge back IN to your department and can then provide in-house training.
But mostly, it should be about regular training sessions; pulling hose, catching a hydrant, drafting, raising ladders, ventilation (horizontal and vertical), primary searches and all the rest that makes up basic firefighting. It's the rank and file that's out there working, it should be up to your leadership to get additional training and bring it home. And 2-4 hours of training per week is not asking all that much of your members to maintain their skill sets.
One final question, why would someone NOT object to a few hours on the fireground working a fire but WOULD object to few hours training for one?
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Well put Jack/dt, My dept would really love to have every single member a FFII. Until this year we avg only one structure fire a year. We fight field/brush fires and farm equip fires alot. Not one member has a wildland fire cert. or any formal training on that subject. I intend on changing this it should be required from day one on are dept. But I have to get it to teach it and its never been offered. I have asked the district to offer it, I hope they do. We really do a good job on these fires its what we do but we should be trained to do it safely.
The state will not let us modify the lesson plan for any certification class so what they tell us to teach we must.
Oh a set amount of hours for training did not fly. I wanted 2 to 3 hours a month and OMG the sky was falling. They will pay for us to go anywhere we would like to take training that includes room and board. So we have a few well trained and a few that could not pour sand out of a boot with the instructions wrote on the bottom. This does not happen just on my dept it happen all over.
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Permalink Reply by william cody gentry on
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Amen brother
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Permalink Reply by George A. Laiacona III on
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Here's what I see are the issues: volunteerism is down across the country, and not just with the fire service. Many organizations can't fill their rolls because of this national illness that we have of being sound-byte driven, instant-gratification, short-attention spanned, "what's in it for me" people in America anymore. Today, if a boy scout helps an old lady across the street, he expects a tip for doing so. And what's more, we're a litigous society now. That same old lady is going to sue that boy scout for being helpfull (and the courts will let her), especially if the lad didn't complete his required 140 hours of "help old ladies" training, so she'll get neglect damages. Here's where the advancing requirements of minimum standards come in: law suits. Not to get better trained responders, but to cover your six in court. It's also difficult for the aforementioned scout to get time off from school to attend the mandatory training, so we'll get fewer scouts. (What would really help here is a national law similar to what protects National Guard and Reserves when they're called up for duty.) What brought a lot of this on is the "social club" mentality of a lot of volunteer groups. They aren't serious about being firefighters, all they want is the badge and to run lights and sirens through traffic. Personally, I could care less. I'm in it for the reward of saving a life or saving property, and what makes me better at doing that is training, training, and more training. It's not about money. I gave up a great paying job to become a volunteer fireman and full-time EMT. I should probably sit down and organize this into a coherent essay instead of jumping all around with my thoughts. Almost as hard to follow as a Salman Rushdie novel. But, the point is that few want to volunteer anymore, and fewer want to take the time needed to be trained competent, and not many can even get the time to train due to the high cost of caring for their own families. And, if the volunteer makes it through all the requirements, they still stand a good chance of getting sued out of their house by the victim they attempted to help in the first place. I'm not sounding bitter, am I?
South Carolina has a tax credit incentive for volunteers. We need that tax incentive on a national level. We need legislation that protects volunteers' jobs while they go through the mandatory training. We need tort reform and sensible laws that protect volunteers from lawsuits.
Somebody said earlier that it's a leadership issue. Too true, however, it's not just the Chief that fails us, it's our councilmembers, aldermen, representatives, senators, etc. that need to step up to the plate as leaders.
Make it fashionable to be a good volunteer in your community.
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George, You got a bullseye. Everybody has there hand out anymore. Very few want to do it because it is right thing to do. The kids in my town come around in the summer and ask "Can I get paid". That is how they ask for a part time job. I have heard that a few dozen times.
I read alot into the future from that. They don't want to work they just want paid.
I believe in the near future the volunteer fire service is going to be in big trouble.
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I agree 100% too. I can see the Volunteer end of fire service being in trouble soon too. Just like what was said earlier, alot of people today "not all", but alot are to greedy, they just want money. Or worse, they just want the badge, lights, radio, tags, and title. Either way, the outlook doesn't look great for the volunteer service. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to be a career firefighter one day, but if I never got that option, that would be just fine too. I didn't join for the money then, and I'm not in it for the money now. I'm hear to help people and save lives. However, far to many people today, especially the younger summer break kids, are simply in it for the wrong reason, don't care about training, and oneday it's all gonna add up to someone getting hurt or worse.
Right now my department only requires 144 hrs / yr of training. I don't think thats to much to ask for, as a matter of fact, I wouldn't mind training alot more then that. Which that is our minimum training hrs, we do get in alot more. I for all the training I can get, I figure the more we practice and train, the better we are when it counts. If you feel differently, I don't know if your in the right job.
Well, I guess I've rattled enough on this one..
Happy Holidays Guys,
Joseph West | HFR #81
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Permalink Reply by Moose on
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Good topic John, one that I agree with you on 100%. Take a look at my blog about training in the fire service. (Sorry, not so good with computer links and all that!!! LOL)
I am the same exact way you are brother. I go to every class I am available for, for the simple reason that Bull stated in his post, if I am called to an emergency I want to be able to help those people, and not stand around asking for help. It seams as if the chiefs in our county just want to call special teams to assist. Why not actually TRAIN like you are supposed to and know what to do? We get a call for an MVA, thats right, an MVA and guys that say they know what they are doing are ripping sheet metal off af the door frame on cars without stabilizing the vehicle when the back door can be opened?!?!?!?! Try before you pry, right?
Basic firefighting knowledge is non-existant, training is not needed around my area if you are an Explorer and have a daddy that is chief. That is the most dangerous thing I have heard, yet its true. The departments around me have a handful of firefighters that train, the rest are overnight sensations that think they know it all and its a scary thought.
I have a book of certs that I have even re-freshed every chance I get, and I attend lectures as well anytime I can go. I am only 3 hours away from the Montaur Falls Fire Academy and I go whenever my department can afford to pay for the class. Training should be everyones responsibility, it shouldnt be up to the leaders to make you attend training. If you want to enter an IDLH atmosphere that can kill you and your partner at any time, than you need to train hard.
If you ask me the fire service should be run as a paramilitary organization with promotional exams for officer, even for the volunteers not just the career brothers and sisters. Its dangerous enough that there are those that refuse to train fighting the fires, now they want to run for officer and give orders?? Orders that could kill an entire company of firefighters or more?? I have seen 21 year old guys with 3 years in a department become chief...yes CHIEF.
Its scary...
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Great article Brian, wow seriously 3 years in and become chief? Do main, 3 at that department, or just simply 3 yrs in the fire service. Cause, man someone with only 3 year in the service, if they go somewhere and screw up, something big that causes the team or civilian casualties, you would think that that is bordering on negligence, and fire department/personal liability. Why would people be crazy enough to place someone with only 3 yrs in the fire service in position on command like that. I would think, they had to be either really short on personal or the guy who became chief had a dad, close family member, or really good friend to push him into that position. Either way, great story it was an interesting read. If it is just 3 yrs in the fire service, then scary is an understatement, I don't know if I could trust or work with someone with such little experience, not as my commanding officer anyways. At least I can say, my chief is a great guy, a good chief, and that man knows his stuff when it comes to fire, honestly I've seen no one better.
Be safe out there guys and gals, lets get it done and get home..
Joseph West | HFR #81
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Permalink Reply by Greg Jeppson on
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Moose brings up some good points about time in service and being voted or given the reins of a fire department. Where I am from this is common place. Vote for me and I'll give you that. Redneck voting. this is a disaster waiting to happen. Around here my mutual aid companies like to use the word WE ARE JUST VOLUNTEERS. I am sick of this. They do not wear proper PPE and or care about getting an education.
As a Chief, when this particular department responds with us, their chiefs dont even bother coming to our calls since I have YELLED at them for improper responding to our calls, speeding, not wearing PPE. I have had enough of talking to them. So when their crews get on scene I watch them very closely. This is an example of Chiefs that are NOT qualified nor do they want to learn anything because they are "Chiefs". I wonder why many of their members are asking to become members of our department.
Guys/Gals, the point is Go to school. Set the positive example and teach your new members. Volunteer and Career dont mean a thing. Fire will kill you either way. Minimum training should be the 1403 and then move them into getting more classes. Once they see that you are doing it they will be motivated to do the same.
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