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How far and how much can you get out of a volunteer?
I attended a class to be certified as Instructor I last week. They were complaining that enrollment was way down in the state classes. They ask what we thought they were were thinking the economy. I know what is going on and tried to make them understand.
Here in Indiana they are putting more and more to get though and pass the states classes. They always say not everybody is cut out to be a firefighter. I agree with that statement but I see more and more volunteers just getting mandatory and not going farther. If your career it may add pay or advance your career. But where is the motive for a volunteer?
I took a drivers op class it was free. My chief ask me why do I want to go though all that when I can drive and pump the trucks. I hear this all the time and not just from my dept. I have more certs than all but one officer on my dept and I am one away from him. I am still a just a firefighter so why should I try there is no advancement in it for me and don't think there will be for a long time. I don't care if I am an officer I am self motivated and gun ho, But most are not.
I see what the state wants but when most of the area is covered by vollies how much can they get. I believe there has to be a happy medium. Or training will stop at the bare minimum. I think thats the opposite of what they want. I believe they are wanting better trained fire depts not less trained.
I don't know if this post shows what I am tring to say correctly. Its hard to explain what I am tring to say. I am not really against the new stuff but how far can they go before it blows up in there face and hurts more than it helps.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Joseph West on
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Well put Greg, it's pitiful to think and see chief's, who don't care to that extent. No, really it's sad. I mean come on, you've got an entire department of men and women, heck some are just boys and girls. If your a/the chief, and you don't care anymore than that, I personally think that if a chief acts and responds like that, and doesn't promote and enforce some kind of mandatory minimum training hours, then that man/women should be held personally liable and responsible for any personal injuries or loss of property. You take a good chief, who knows his stuff, who enforces those mandatory minimum training hours and then some. That man pulls up on scene, with an entry team to a fire, or a First Response unit to a wreck, if you've got those hours in for training, things should go pretty well. Granted as hard as we try, we can't save them all, however the numbers are alot better. But, same scenario and half a** chief shows up, who doesn't care about that stuff shows up, then the chance of loss of property and life goes way up, solely due to the negligence of the chief, he should be held accountable for that.
As far as those Redneck, backdoor votings. Those flat out should be illegal. I think there should be a better set, standard SOP, and protocols for hiring in a fire chief. I'm not really sure what that system would be off the top of my head. But, I'm sure with the guys and gals on here, we could come up with a better system. We live it and see it everyday, we know where the grey areas are that need to be and should be fixed. However, how would we regulate a small redneck town/community, where everyone in power is brothers, cousins, sisters, steps-somethings, etc...
Well, I'm not sure what else can be said about this matter. We see the problems, and at the same time are almost powerless to stop it for the most part. I guess the only way to do it would be, to get your local politicians, aldermen, mayor, and councilmen involved but I'm sure we know that would get us for the most part "NO Where".
Happy Holidays,
Joseph West | HFR #81
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Permalink Reply by Rachel on
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They are having problems finding vollies. One station was "disbanded" because they did not have enough many power I will get back to you on that one.
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We were expecting about 24-72 hours of training-NOT 240!! It is about half of all of the training one needs to get on as a cert. Career firefighter. A little much for an ENTIRELY VOLUNTEER force. I understand the risks and why a FF needs the training they do-but we still have weekly training at the station.
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Permalink Reply by John Dobson on
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I am a firefighter by rank, Every training I find I post on the meeting room white board. The few new guys we have are chomping at the bit for any and all training so if I find a dept that is having it I set them up. One of the first thing I tell them "I want to know everything they know and I want them to know every thing I know". Some of the older guys have told me "Oh you don't need to know that" or ''not everybody needs to go to that class I will get it and tell you what you need to know". I have to give the chief credit on that one he said if someone wants to go they can and no one was to say anything else or they would be answering to him.
But with all I have stated I will say the more I learn the more my dept values my opinion. I have never lied to them and if I didn't know I told them just that. I always follow though with my promises quickly.
I know in my short time on my dept I am not the most experienced person thats always in my mind. I respect experience I know there is a difference in real life and a book or classroom. I look at cert as the base to build off of and does not make you an expert. To me it means you know the very basic things about that field.
I was told in my instructor class you will learn more by teaching a class than when you took it yourself. I believe that to be 100% true.
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Permalink Reply by Bull on
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Rachel, I dont know about Florida, but here in Wis. even if your mother is a nurse, she would still have to take Emergency Medical Responder or EMT to respond on calls. And then she can only treat to the level of care that she is responding to, EX: If your mother can administrate an IV at the hospital, she cannot do it in the field unless she is an IV tech. But thats here, unsure of what your state says. Do a little research on that....
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Permalink Reply by Jack/dt on
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Rachel,
The problem you are having is that you are under the impression that, as a member of a volunteer fire department, one is (or should be) entitled to onlyminimumnominal training. I'm not sure what you think you would learn in 24-72 hours of "training" but it's nowhere near enough to be a qualified,capable probationary firefighter. There's very little you can learn of anything in 24-72 hours, certainly nothing as complicated and risky as firefighting. Would you expect a pilot to earn a license in 72 hours?
Weekly training is to maintain, refresh and sharpen you skills, not necessarily to learn new skills and certainly not to learn basic firefighting skills. It seems to me that you and your family thought it would be "easy" to become a firefighter. That there is a problem getting new "members" in a volunteer fire department is no reason to lessen the qualifications. Unqualified firefighters are the stuff of nightmares, and you want to sanction that?
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I can see that being true man. Teaching a class, I'd think you would learn alot more. You get alot more input over time, from multiple members/students.
Also, to the person who says, "Everyone doesn't need to take the class, I'll comeback and teach you what I've learned", well that person is crazy. There is absolutely nothing like first hand knowledge and experience. I'd much rather take the class myself and learn all I can first hand. Versus, having someone else go take it, he get the cert for taking it, then comeback to me to tell me what he learned and get it wrong. If he told me wrong, it could cost my partner, my teammates, a victim, a citizen, or myself serious bodily damage, death, or property damage. All because I couldn't or would go down and take a class, to learn how to do my job.
The way I personally see training, is like this, and this solely my opinion. You do your cert classes and/or department training classes, mainly for one reason,->to learn and practice the skills necessary to save lives and property. After you've learned and practiced those skills, you goto the scene of an incident, here you learn how to apply those skills, that you learned in the cert and/or department training classes.
I say that cause, you can stay in a non stressful environment all day and practice away. Like they say practice make perfect, which I believe to be very true. However, when you get on a scene where it really counts, under-pressure, over stressed, and every minute/second counts. This is where you truly learn how to apply those skill you learned in class.
If your a rookie, there is no training like on the job experience, during an emergency call. If you've made your training classes, you've got the routine down, and have senior FF around, you should be just fine.
Thats why I would take on any and all classes, offered to me by my Fire Department. You never know when your gonna be in a situation where you need it. You may stand there during the training and tell yourself, "I"ll never need this stuff". Then you could pull on scene tomorrow, and need it to save a life. So, I recommend, you take advantage of what your department offers you. Your department gives you the option to take classes to benefit you, them, and your district. The more you know, the better the firefighter you will make. Period.
Joseph West | HFR #81
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Permalink Reply by Greg Jeppson on
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That statement is so true learning more while teaching. I have been an instructor for about 10 years and I learn more from the preparation and teaching. My classes I encourage talking and life experiences.
As for you comment about experience. This bothers me a little due to I have members that believe that experience is the only way to go. Yes and NO. Yes because you learn. No because technology is passing you up and you HAVE to change to appropriately and safely mitigate the issue. "We have been doing it that a way for years" .
Education and experience goes hand in hand!
Good post.
Merry Christmas!
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Permalink Reply by Dave Wenck on
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I think the bottom line is, if you can take the training your county /state /fire dept. offers take it. There will always be a certian few that will only take the minimum training to be one of the 'good old boy club member'. Thats fine ,they can work the dinners and bingo nite, wash hose, clean the rigs and sweep out the bays(yea like this will really happen). The small department i am associated with has around 48 members ,only 18 have fire fighter essentials and out of those only 4 ,as of 2008, are qualified to be interior . I can't remember when there was a drill or a live training, most of the drills are apiece of paper passed around the room at the monthly meetings for people to sign stateing they have received training. I started going to the departmet that i started my vollie career to train and drill, I should also note that this is a fire district made up of 2 stations and seperate chiefs and so on under a board of comissioners, you might ask why do the comissioners let this happen. Thats what i have asked for the last seven years. Thats why i'm going back to my first department. They have their own problems also but a much better group of guys that take being a vollie alittle more seriously than the others. So as i have seen this in other discussions on FFN, Train Often, Train Hard, Train Safely . Been there, saw that, done some of it since '86
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Joseph,
You made this comment, "Also, to the person who says, "Everyone doesn't need to take the class, I'll comeback and teach you what I've learned", well that person is crazy."
I've read all of the posts and the only one that comes close to what you've written is what I wrote earlier, "Many of the responses to your post agree that people should be taking as much training as they can but let's be realistic, some people are perpetual students and love ongoing education/training. Those people should be taking Instructor I/II classes and train the trainer programs so that when they do go out for training, they are qualified and capable of bringing that knowledge back IN to your department and can then provide in-house training.
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So please show me where I or someone else said what you claim. If you are referring to me then you've called me "crazy" which clearly shows your ignorance and arrogance. I suggest you re-read my quoted comment above. I very clearly stated that a person the enjoys and takes a lot of classes/training should take Fire Instructor I/II and train-the-trainer programs so that they can bring back their knowledge and teach it (appropriately and accurately), in-house.
"I'd much rather take the class myself and learn all I can first hand. " I'm guessing you've never taught anyone anything because if you had, you would know that nothing reinforces your own knowledge and ability better than teaching someone else.
Of course, you contradict yourself with this comment, "Teaching a class, I'd think you would learn alot more. You get alot more input over time, from multiple members/students." Yet you then say you'd rather take the class yourself because you think YOU need to be there yourself in a class outside of your department. ""Everyone doesn't need to take the class, I'll comeback and teach you what I've learned", well that person is crazy.""
"Versus, having someone else go take it, he get the cert for taking it, then comeback to me to tell me what he learned and get it wrong." For starters I didn't say "...get the cert...", please re-read what I've written. Or maybe you just have no idea what Fire Instructor I and II are about. It sounds like you're saying that everyone else in your department is stupid and incapable of teaching anything, to anyone, accurately. If that's the case then there are some serious issues in your department. Either that or you just happen to think you're better than everyone else.
"If he told me wrong, it could cost my partner, my teammates, a victim, a citizen, or myself serious bodily damage, death, or property damage. All because I couldn't or would go down and take a class, to learn how to do my job." This is a combination of your arrogance and your ignorance. You can easily take a class, go home and forget some essential aspect of it and the same thing as you stated above, get it wrong.
It's great that you like to go out and take classes but I suspect that you may be an insufferable ass because of it, Mr-know-it-all back in your department because YOU went and took a class. So instead of calling people "crazy" maybe you should put your holier-than-thou attitude in your back pocket, take Fire Instructor I and II and BECOME A COMPETENT INSTRUCTOR, where you can then go back to your department and TEACH (instead of PREACH) what you learned. You'll be better for it and so will your department.
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We had 9 volunteer fire departments in my county-until recently. like I said-1 station was disbanded-and 1 was turned into a "reserve" department(meaning that it is only staffed with "reserve" firefighters-those still going thru training). Some of the other departments are well staffed-most are not. 1 station lost its funding from the county because there was not enough volunteers-now its gets limited $$ from the city.
By the way-it is 250 hours of training to start-unless you are a cadet-then you get the training while acting as a cadet
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