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Flashover, what the hell were they thinking?
As you can see, the room is already lit up. Apparently they are in no rush to get the ladder off the rig and in place. So......WTF?
http://e.blip.tv/scripts/flash/showplayer.swf?file=http%3A%2F%2Fbli...
http://e.blip.tv/scripts/flash/showplayer.swf?file=http%3A%2F%2Fbli...
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Engineco913 on
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I guess we could stand around and watch them all burn. Why not, they are only the victims worldly possesions and or family members. The old wise addage always comes to mind and you can pick it apart.
Risk a lot-to save a lot. Risk little to save litte. Risk nothing to save nothing.
Until the population of firefighters WORLDWIDE start getting healthier and taking PREVENTATIVE measures to improve health and safety, the LODD's will continue. Every year (aside from 2001) heart attacks and cardio system issues leads the way in LODD's. Every year fatalities occur when accidents happen and seat belts aren't worn. Every year we lose firefighters because in training they go too far. Every year we lose firefighters due to not wearing their full PPE (and SCBA) especially during overhaul. The thing to remember is the actual number of firefighters who die doing firefighting operations (interior firefighting) isn't as high as the LODD numbers will state.
In short, until seat belts are MANDATORY and ENFORCED, training is conducted the safest way possible, people start getting healthier, Drivers trainign programs go from being a recommendation to being mandatory, and people start wearing ALL their PPE and SCBA, the fate of LODD's will remain unchanged.
Again Luke, I grow frustrated at your continued effort to point out ALL the deficiencies in the United States fire service. Try being a little more constructive in your criticism. Your negative outlook towards the US is noted by many. (and yes this is based on about 8 months of your comments on this forum and many others.) Negative attitudes only contribute to the spread of more negativity.
The way I see it, firing negative comments doesn't correct a situation half as much as hard work and dedication towards correcting a problem does. You can take THAT to the bank.
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Permalink Reply by lutan1 on
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EngineCo, reread my post. I'm asking Allen and others, why settle for a static number of LODD's?
I'm saying it doesn't have to be that way.
My final comment about the USA being the highest is not anti-american (as you have taken to calling me!), it's an observation based on the almost daily number of notifications coming across the web.
And you're spot on, and have actually supported me in a round-about sort of way- the whole issue about fitness, seatbelts, PPE, etc is about changing mindsets, which is what I said originally as well.
Change the mindset about what is an acceptable risk and reduce the LODD's and injuries. We don't need to be killing ourselves to do the job- it's not an acceptable practice....
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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Luke,
I don't think you're anti-American at all - you've shown yourself to be pretty open-minded and you have a lot of American cyber-friends.
Your comment about the USA having the highest LODD rate is spot on.
We have more LODDs, and that's a function of a) having more fires and b) doing a lot of interior attacks. A lot of those interior attacks occur because there "might" be a rescue. In fact, there are relatively few fireground rescues in the U.S., and most of those are in multi-residential occupancies. We rescue live victims from smoke, not from fire. If the fire gets them, they're almost always dead.
In single-family dwellings, the victims are almost always either dead or standing in the front yard.
The above contributes heavily to why you hear a lot about FDNY making live rescues from apartment buildings and you almost never hear about the Wayback VFD making a live grab at a zero-dark-thirty house fire.
One of my points is that better size-up, better community education, distributing free smoke detectors, and even residential sprinkler systems can greatly diminish the need fo us to be inside with the fire. Diminishing being in the structure with the fire that's eating it alive will keep more of us out of the LODD statistics.
Ben
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Permalink Reply by Tom Lambui on
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Ok, I can agree with your statement. But.....aren't we putting ourselves in danger every time we gear up to go out on a call? Or even drill? As far as unnecessary risks, what might seem to me an unnecessary risk, might seem to you a normal everyday occurence. Some might also consider it a calculated risk. I guess it all depends on your point of view.
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Permalink Reply by Erin T. on
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I'm not perfect, however, I would like to forget about that day if others in here don't mind.
Thank you.
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Allen,
Per fire, LODDs are four times what they used to be 30 years ago when I started.
There will always be risk in our job, but when we're running 1/4 of the fires with the same approximate LODD rate every year, that tells me that we can do better.
As far as your disagreement with a much less-experienced FFN member regarding the VES choices, I agree with you. The entry was marginal, but the ladder placement was ideal for VES, bailout, and clearing the obstructions.
A FF1 that is complaining about having to take FFII to be certified when moving to a new state is unlikely to have ever seen VES, let alone be qualified to judge someone else who routinely performs it. Was the entry choice marginal - you bet, but if he could have closed the door to the hallway, there would have been no flashover and we would have never seen the video.
What this discussion shows is that experience and training above the FFI and FFII level are not only good things, they're essential.
Ben
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Permalink Reply by Matthew Brough on
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I didn't really read all the replies, but here is my big big questions....
Where the hell was suppression??? I think a little water was in order, no, a lot of water was in order.
Was that a positive pressure fan running in the background? That's smart with no real attack.
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Permalink Reply by CJ Knapp on
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Well it could have been tunnel vision on thier part or poor training.... All I can say to this is TRAINING, TRAINING, TRAINING!!!!
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Permalink Reply by FETC on
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You should really read the posts before jumping in. They guy who was in the video replied with his thoughts and actions...
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Permalink Reply by Joe Stoltz on
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For those who don't want to read all of the posts, READ THIS ONE.
Below I have pasted text from page 2 of this discussion. It is the text of a post BY THE FIRE CAPTAIN IN THE VIDEO. Read his words, then look at the video again, then comment. Please.
_________
I’m the guy in the video, and against my better judgement, i feel the need to set this thing straight.
First off, i’m a captain in indianapolis, and have 23 years in the busiest companies in the city. I’ve been to a couple of fires.
Because you weren’t there, i would tell you to watch the video again after i explain things, and maybe you’ll think differently.
This was a 4:00 am fire dispatched as entrapment, with excitement in the dispatchers voice. We were the first ladder company on the scene, and we were met with cars in the driveway, and neighbors screaming that there was a woman in that room.
Because of the involvement in the rest of the house, VES was going to be the only option on this one.
When we vent the window with the ladder, it looks like the room is burning, but the flames you see are coming from the hallway, and entering through the top of the bedroom doorway. Watch it again and you’ll see the fire keeps rolling in and across the ceiling.
When i get to the window sill, the queen-sized bed is directly against the window wall, so there is no way to “check the floor” like the textbook geeks gigged me for not doing. Notice that you continue to see my feet going in, because i’m on the bed.
Believe me, in the beginning, this was a tenable room both for me and for any victim that would have been in there. How else could i have been on the bed, 3 feet above the floor, calmly entering. Trust me when i say that i know what hot is, and this was no hotter than any other fire i’ve been in.
My goal was to get to the door and close it, just like VES is supposed to be done. We do it successfully all the time.
When i reached the other side of the bed, i dropped to the floor and began trying to close the door. Unfortunately, due to debris on the floor, the door would not close.
Conditions were still quite tenable at this point, but i knew with the amount of fire entering at the upper level, and smoke conditions changing, things were going to go south fast. As stated earlier, i’ve been doing this for 23 years, and i know fire behavior.
I kept my eyes on my exit point, and finished my search, including the closet, which had no doors on it. Just as i was a few feet from the window, the room lit off, and the rest is history, and fodder for all the self-proclaimed experts.
It’s hard for me to imagine that firefighters who weren’t there can find so much fault with a firefighter who did exactly what we’re supposed to do. For you textbook geeks, that means risking a lot to save a savable life. Like i said earlier, when i first made this room, it was NOT on fire like the video makes it look. I’ll give you this much; once the flashover occurred, no civilian could have survived, but if she would have been in there, maybe, just maybe i could have gotten her out before it happened.
I have to wonder what you would be saying if the video showed me just staying at the top of the ladder, never entering like many of you suggested, and later we found her corpse lying on the other side of the bed. Instead of calling me an idiot, you’d call me a coward. I’ll take idiot any time!
To “Dave” from my department who said he’d guess that i would probably look back now and say it wasn’t the smartest thing to do, you’re absolutely right. It was the ONLY thing to do. And if i’m faced with that exact same situation a hundred more times, i’ll be in that window every time, because i’m a fireman.
And if anyone wonders why i was aware of my surroundings at all times, why i was able to recognize when flashover was imminent, and why i pulled off a head-first ladder slide without a hitch….TRAINING!
To the guy who said i had no facepiece on..you’re freakin’ joking right? What you see dangling is my hand-lantern. Do you carry one?
And to the guy who says i have no tool, look at the axe handle sticking out of my SCBA belt. It’s not in my hand, because when i do a search, i know when i’m touching a body with my hand. When i hit it with a tool, it’s anyone’s guess what i’m touching. But i ALWAYS have a tool.
In closing, i would only suggest that when you watch a video from now on, remember that you weren’t there.
And if you were faced with the same situation, with the exact same conditions i was faced with, if you wouldn’t have done the same thing, then i’m glad you’re not on my job.
stay safe brothers
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Permalink Reply by Billy B Casteel JR on
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With that house lit up like that. If there was someone in there they most likely did not make it. way risk the lives of two of our brothers or sisters. Way risk alot to save a little.
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