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First thing that should be done at a structure fire.
This is something that the guys and I debate from time to time. Here is the scnerio, your company is dispactched to a working structure fire, there is no entrapment. You and your company arrive on scene, complete a 360 of the structure, hook into a water supply and the decision is made to do an interior attack of the fire. What is the next step that should be taken? I am a firm believer in venting the roof (if possible) and breaking windows and laddering so that there are avenues of egress. If this can be done concurrently as a crew makes an interior attack then so be it, if it has to be done prior to making the interior attack due to a lack of manpower, then thats an option to. What do you all think?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by T.J. on
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I say no venting untell your attack team calls for it, I'd be pissed off if someone starting smashing out the windos before I called for it. You need to wait for the interior team to find the seat of the fire and go from there.
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Permalink Reply by Edward Fleming on
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PPV all the way. Works wonders if done right.
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Permalink Reply by FF Nick on
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Horizontal vent with a gas fan works just as good for us, and takes less time/manpower to get in place. Breaking windows is a last resort for us (property conservation) and if you break them vs. just opening them you can't channel your ventilation where you want it/where its needed. I'm with TJ on the "wait till ventilation is called for" I've seen a few get pretty pissed when you throw something at your attack team they're not ready for.
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Permalink Reply by Station10Capt106 on
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I like having the vent teams in place and ready to go, but agree with T.J. about waiting until the interior team calls for it. It all needs to be coordinated to avoid complications. If venting can be done w/ PPV and by opening windows & doors that is much better than breaking and cutting everything.
John
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Permalink Reply by Doc82 on
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Call me crazy, but venting would definately have to wait. If the first arriving engine crew has already hooked into water, done the 360, and prepared for an interior attack, then imo they have already committed to their plan of action. So the next logical step for me would be a second line, yea its probably assumed but why vent vertically or break windows when you dont need to. I know I've felt the heat and singed gear from someone venting at the wrong time without coordinating with those of us on the inside.
Granted in your scenario there are so many variable that you leave out that would play a huge role in what you could call the next step, size of the area involved, fire spread, type of structure, 2nd due time to arrival, size of first due crew (would you actually do entry with a 3 man 1st due crew?).
Since all occupants are reported to be safely out of the structure would you still do a primary search to make sure?
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Permalink Reply by Todd M. on
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We can what if all day! Every fire is different. R&C, Multiple rooms is the fire on the first floor second that should determine what kind and how to vent. whole house, basement. What are the smoke conditions, is there a back draft potental,flashover potential, I would at least have a crew ready but not on the roof until attack crew(s) are ready.
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Permalink Reply by John Rulli Jr. on
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I agree with Tj. "No venting untell your attack team calls for it" why cut a vent hole in the roof if its a room in content fire? Just open up the windows set up ppv in the front or rear doorway depanding on where the fire is and lifes good. Remember salvage and overhaul.
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Permalink Reply by Chris on
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I honestly don't understand "venting". We dont do it, untill the fire is out and we are clearing smoke, but then we wouldnt smash a window, just open it. Our first thing would be to run a line of 38mm charged to 800kpa at the acron, then make entry. We shut the door behind us, and use gas cooling techniques to approach the fire. Once we are close to the fire we "pencil" it down and then "paint" it out. We are taught a single room involved with fire can be put out with 50L of water, minimising damage to the house from water as well as fire. If your scenario involves a house that has already flashed, then It would be a matter of minutes if not seconds before it self ventilated so we would run 2 lines of 70mm, and use the small amount of time to get into a position where we can protect neighbouring property effectivley before commencing defensive firefighting.
Cheers guys
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Permalink Reply by Chris Miller on
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I think it is all about a good size-up, sound tactical decision making and coordination. There are times when ventilation must occur prior to making entry, there are times when it can wait for the interior crew to call for it, and there are times that it must occur simultaneously with attack.
To go on there is a time and a place for each type of ventilation, vertical, horizontal, PPV, hydraulic, etc. Again a good size-up and sound tactical decision making will usually dictate the proper tactic for the situation. There is really no one correct answer for this as it is all situational. I have seen many vent holes on second floor roofs for a room and contents fire on the first floor, WHY? The chosen tactic must fit the incident, coordination must occur, and tactical priorities must be weighted and established.
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+1, These questions are always so hard to answer, without a proper size up the question poses so many variables. Stay flexible and don't get addicted to doing the same way every fire.......
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Permalink Reply by Dillon on
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This like shows how not to vent..learn from others mistakes
first video on the page
http://www.vententersearch.com/?cat=24
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Permalink Reply by Jeff Cole on
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The problem has been identified by a previous poster. Not "Understanding" ventilation. First off, you have to size-up and consider the scenario. With any wood frame or ordinary dwelling and especially when the fire has not been located, I say rather loudly...leave the damn fan on the truck! But NOT venting just shows a complete lack of understanding fire behavior and firefighting in general. Especially with today's increased btu's, the wide-range of ignition points for various gases, some which will ignite from common building materials at a temperture well below what you may feel before it's too late.
Searching for fire without venting is a dangerous gamble as well. This defies logic to me. The problem seems to be a lack of understanding ventilation, a lack of understanding fire behavior, and a lack of training, and in SOME cases, a lack of experience. Ventilating is probabaly the best way to prevent the ignition and rapid combustion of unburned gases. Well-coordinated ventilation ahead of the fire, with an open channel for the fire and byproducts to go once the line is opened up will ensure the attack hoseline will be able to advance as it should, rapidly. It is easily coordinated with proper communications. When the line is opened up on the fire before ventilation, where does the expanded and expended steam, and gases go? Simple-they spread horizontally until they find an opening, causing further damage and excessive heat conditions for the interior engine crew. Certainly not doing ventilation when there is a life hazard only decreases the chance for survival. And it makes for a far more difficult search as well.
Roof/vertical ventialtion is indicated in many scenarios, yet requires additional personnel, and many times a well placed horizontal vent will by the time needed for fire confinement until truck crews have sufficient staffing or have made access and can begin the roof cut.
Hesitating to take out windows becouse of some property conservation attitudes shows a lack of basic firefighting understanding. I had a chief that believed in that "theory" once. Thankfully he has long-since retired. No clue what-so-ever about tactics and stragtegies. Opening windows ahead of the fire not only restricts the amount of ventilation opening, but certainly fails to address emergency egress. Glas and windows are relatively cheapp to replace, and usually have to be replaced when subject to heat. I do not advocate the arbitrary assault on every windwo in a dwelling for a pot of meat on the stove. Again, size-up by an experienced, trained, and educated officer will prevent mindless damage.
Arrival, ICS, SIZE-UP, establish a water supply, stretching the proper diameter and length attack line to he best advante point, the unburned side first, or between the occupants and the fire, and immediate ventilation ahead of the attack...primary search, backing up the first line, coovering the floor above and venting at a higher level, either at the roof or horizontally, and creating emergency egress positions supported by agressive ladder placement...it's all very basic. Not ventilating is ...absurd.
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