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Firefighters or Cops? You Tell Me!
Who has more stress on the job?
A firefighter or a cop?
Why?
What can you do about it?
You know that STRESS KILLS!
A firefighter or a cop?
Why?
What can you do about it?
You know that STRESS KILLS!
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Mick Montoya on
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POLICE OFFICERS (not cops please) get shot at ok. But when a guy has 8000 rounds of .50 cal ammo that is going all directions and blasting holes in the engine you are under, that is stress. When asked why this dude had so many rounds he said "It's a hobby of mine." . A few of those bad boys is a hobby, 8000 is a revolution. Anyone remember Waco?
I'm just saying that the stress level is the same just under different and sometimes the same conditions.
I just ranted because the incident above still gives me nightmares.
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Permalink Reply by Dennis Hiscock on
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i believe 100% that police officers (here anyways) are more of a stress full job than Fire fighting....however as mentioned before fire fighters have heart attacks 2-1 more than any other member on the front lines....I do agree that members of our "calling" have to be 100% alert even if it's 3am in the morning and the beeper/alarms start coming in...just as fas as we fall to sleep we have to be back on top from the time we get up from our bunks to the time we get in the truck..that takes alot of pumping of the blood...lol
Granted we are the first ones in and the last ones out and we are the only ones on the face of the world that go into a burning building while everyone else is running for their lives...but the most important thing that all members of any front line(s) can do is talk about what stresses you out on the job...that's why they have "experts" available to talk too....
be safe everyone...that's my two cents worth...
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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on
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How is a cop's adrenaline rush any different? They hear it over a radio, say a report of a person inside a building with a gun. You go. Tell me adrenaline isn't going to be oozing out of every pore and opening in your body.
Again; firefighters are dying from stress/over-exertion 2 - 1 over cops. We chase fire. They chase perps.
The difference?
The difference comes in endurance. As I mentioned before, there is physical stress and there is emotional stress. There are several folks here looking basically just at emotional stress as a debate point. Yes, a call for shots fired, or the idiot with 8000 rounds of .50 cal ammo etc is a high stress situation, or just wearing a uniform makes them a target can be stressful, but at what point is the endurance level the equal type of consideration? I mean emotionally firefighters have to worry about coditions like backdrafts and flashovers, collapses and such, which tend to occur more often than a idiot with a .50 cal.
Now responding to that shooter scene or walking up to that car or whatever, how much extra weight are police wearing on their body? Are they all covered up in protective PPE even on a hot summer day? Those that may be, how long? How much extra weight are they carrying to go into a hotter environment? where are police pulling heavy supply hoses? when are police cutting vent holes?
I mean really for the most part the cop gets a call for a shooter in a building....how many are rushing in vs staging outside and awaiting backup? How physically enduring is a chase before the officer can pull back and get back in a car or another officer takes over....and how often is that first officer asked to resume running again after a break?
Let's face it, the make up of the jobs are completely different. When it comes to actual physical stress the arguments do side with firefighters. The job of the firefighter is to make a quick, calculated risk, to mitigate a fire emergency. There can be added emotional stress with the reports of people trapped, FF down, etc, but thankfully these are not daily occurances, but still are trained on. The situations determine what tactics we do, but we are still going to pull heavy hoses, we are still going to wear heavy non-cooling PPE, we are still going to carry extra weight of tools and so forth.
What about the police side? They don't rush in when there is a standoff or shooter, face it, PD sets a perimeter. They may set up negotiations and establish a plan...so what are most officers doing at this point? Not rushing in the door, but staging. Then in some cases a higher trained crew is sent in for the "dirty work" like a SWAT team. Sure the stressors are there but looking at physical endurance, the firefighter is asked to get in and mitigate the situation, police are going to stand back and focus on a plan before rushing in.
It is difficult to truly make a determination on which job sees more emotional stress and which job deals with more issues etc, but physical stress is another thing.
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Permalink Reply by Milo on
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Hmm you are all missing the important thing in this conversation.
We cannot see the DATA your looking at to start this discussion. There are many important questions to be asked to further narrow down the answer.
1. Does the study include volunteer firefighters as well as paid? This could play a roll in age and fitness level. There are not so many volunteer police am I right?
2. Does the data take an even number of samples to give you the proper ratio?
3. does it include factors such as age, situation, On or off duty, marital status? All of these factors can change the numbers.
I think this falls back to the data 100%. After all you all now the story about the warlord who saw that the province in his country that had the most disease also had the most doctors. So the logical course of action was to kill all the doctors.
This just goes to show that maybe NONE of this is related. We need more DATA.
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What data? This looks more like a general opinion question on who has more stress. The question was further elaborated on regarding the statistics of heart related deaths comparing FF to police officers of which data is available from sources like NIOSH, USFA, etc.
1. Does the study include volunteer firefighters as well as paid? This could play a roll in age and fitness level. There are not so many volunteer police am I right?
That issue has been raised by some members here regarding such things like a physical fitness program and even questioned the ages of some FF's.
2. Does the data take an even number of samples to give you the proper ratio?
3. does it include factors such as age, situation, On or off duty, marital status? All of these factors can change the numbers.
Of which they can, but can you agree that there is a difference between the physical stress of the job and an emotional stress?
Theoretically if you take a police officer and firefighter, both single, both on the job 5 years, both have a physical program in place, both healthy. Now emotional stressors out of play, .......is the police officer expected to wear the same weight of PPE (of which the FF PPE retains heat)?, is the police officer expected to pull lines, haul extra equipment and so forth, before entering a building on fire, and then the physical stress of extinguishisng the fire and maybe pulling out victims? is the police officer expected to go back into the structure, after a short break, and resume physically demanding work like pulling walls and ceilings, or even more firefighting?
On a PD type of call, does the cop rush in when there is a confirmed victim and shooter in the building, or do they wait for backup? What equipment does the cop pull out and stage before making entry? How much extra weight of equipment is the police officer carrying around just on scene? Does that gear retain heat the same way as a FF PPE? If the officer runs down a suspect, or wrestles a suspect getting them cuffed, are they typically doing physical demanding work after a short break like the FF?
Just in the difference of the very nature of the jobs, on a fire scene, the typical FF is being asked to endure many more physical stressors than that of a police officer.
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Permalink Reply by Art "ChiefReason" Goodrich on
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1. Yes. Youngest to die of a heart attack this year was 27 years old and career I believe.
2. No. Total number of firefighters nationwide and total number of police officers nationwide.
3.Yes, except marital status.
What you are asking is random sampling. NIOSH, OSHA, USFA all take the total number of employees in that classification for that occupation. You will not get an equal number. At least you are comparing two public safety agencies.
You could be comparing the number of falls from heights when comparing construction workers to tree trimmers. Completely different occupations, but if OSHA can find a way to impose a rule on both, they will. But, I digress.
This is not comparing one million firefighters to one million police officers. It is whatever those totals are.
It's not my data. It's USFA.
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If you want data, tune into the NetCast in ten minutes. They will be discussing 2009 LODDs.
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Permalink Reply by WestPhilly on
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Kali,
If you're only "slightly nauseated" I obviously need to try harder. (Or is it smarter?)
Jack,
It ain't easy fighting the good fight practically single-handedly, but I'm managing.
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With regards to firefighters; do you think that bad physical health coupled with the spike in adrenaline could be causing the heart attacks?
Is it heat stress?
Is it dangerous by-products such as hydrogen cyanide?
I don't believe that it's a simple matter of firefighters trying to do more than they are capable of doing.
I think something with the physiology is the trigger for the medical problem.
Anyone?
TCSS.
Art
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All of which can be factors Art.
The fact remains the physical stressors of the job and couple that with heavy PPE, which retains heat, can be contributing factors. Now even if someone is in bad health and doesn't do much in regards to physical FF (like a chief or pump operator etc who dies after an incident) they may not be doing much physical activity but tend to still be wearing PPE and the extra weight and heat retention along with adreneline can be enough to create an issue.
I would say it has more to do with doing the physical job along with adreneline as bigger factors than say hydrogen cyanide or other by products. We still don't have firefighters across the nation doing a physical program, we have many small rural type of depts with "you take what you can get" approach, we still don't have clear standards regarding training and so forth.
Now, there is also no denying that we have not had the number of fires today as in years past. Most depts have become a jack of all trades organization where so many things are covered and not just the physical demands of the basic fireground. Some depts do have mandatory workout time, but even those can get interrupted with calls, etc. So basically when the fire does come in, it can be a workload for even some of the more fit people and they will still need a good rehab time before being put back to work. Staffing cuts, less volunteers available or retention issues have reduced the number of firefighters working on the fireground and less people doing more work, which means less rehab time to give the body the necessary rest.
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Permalink Reply by Oldman on
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Physical health - maybe. However, there were a few deaths last year from a cardiac related event while participating in physical conditioning.
Heat stress- might play a part but it's more likely dehydration and electrolyte imbalance. Most of us still have our soft drinks and tea or coffee with our "heart healthy" meals. The diuretic effects of tea and coffee are well documented. We are probably somewhat dehydrated before we go into the fire.
Dangerous by products like HCN are only now starting to be studied in depth, but the evidence is sure pointing in the direction of a causal relationship. But what about the possible dangerous substances which are injected or applied in our food sources? Something we probably don't think much about.
I am not unrealistic enough to think we will stop these events. Just as seatbelt use is known to prevent serious injuries and death in a crash, they do not stop them from occurring. All the healthy living, diet, exercise, etc cannot do anything but help us prevent some of them from occurring. Some are still just going to happen.
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Permalink Reply by Jack/dt on
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Regarding the diuretic effects of caffeine, studies have shown that there is little if any linkage to caffeine consumption and dehydration. Caffeine has little more affect as a diuretic than water itself has.
This link - http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/04/health/nutrition/04real.html gives a good summary of the prevailing thought on caffeine and dehydration.
"Investigations comparing caffeine with water or placebo seldom found a statistical difference in urine volume, the author wrote. “In the 10 studies reviewed, consumption of a caffeinated beverage resulted in 0 to 84 percent retention of the initial volume ingested, whereas consumption of water resulted in 0 to 81 percent retention.”"
From this link - http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/559762_2 the following conclusion:
"No difference was reported in 17 experiments ( Table 1 ), when up to 553 mg of caffeine was consumed. Furthermore, there seems to be no relationship between the volume of fluid consumed (column 4) and the appearance of a significant diuresis because of caffeine (column 3)."
The idea that caffeine causes dehydration is no more valid than is the prevailing wisdom (pushed heavily by bottled water companies to increase their sales) of drinking 8- 8oz glasses of water daily.
http://dms.dartmouth.edu/news/2002_h2/08aug2002_water.shtml
http://calorielab.com/news/2006/05/28/8-glasses-of-water-a-diet-urb...
http://www.snopes.com/medical/myths/8glasses.asp
Not trying to threadjack, just trying to make sure the correct information is out there.
Carry on.
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