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Firefighter Deaths
I am in a heated discussion with someone and i want to know if i am right. I am responding to a blog where it is claimed that Firefighting is not the most dangerous profession in the U.S. Commercial fishing andf Mining is, firefighting is 13. I for one am glad it is not. A poster who claimes to be a Vet. Firefighter of 35 years says that unless a firefighter dies in (in actual combat) he or she is not a hero
I disagree
If the person is on duty and required to be there and dies, in my book its a LODD.
Now I know this subject is a source of controversy because how does it work with volunteers? I was asked that question and said, "If the member was killed on their way to the firehouse in response to a call in their POV or killed on the appratus while responding and of course killed the scene or returning from a call, thats a LODD
The poster in my case cites that because he was doing some firehouse maintennence (on duty) and fell resulting in his death it was not a LODD. I cited that some Sailors died in their bunks on Dec 7 were they heroes? Some of the 343 firefighters were killed in a building collapse were they heroes? Some of our military in the Pentagon were at desks when they were killed were they heroes? And in my case a paid FF was on a ladder and fell resulting in his death was he a hero? YES, YES, YES and YES. i am demending an apology from him for bashing a dead brother, am i right?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Fabulous Heather Days of Summer on
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Russ - this is such a personal opinion issue for everyone.
Everyone is ideally allowed to have their own opinion on the matter. They do not need to agree with our personal viewpoints on the matter. And we need not take it personally when someone does not feel the same way we do or believe the way we want them to believe.
Some FFs never want to be called a hero. Some FFs always want to be called heros.
Some FFs put different categories on what defines a hero act (or in this case death) and what is just another day of work.
It is tough to hear an opinion... from anyone... let alone another FF... when we feel that opinion reflects disrespect about a member of the brotherhood. But I know my friends that have died LODD would feel disrespected to know that people were arguing over them instead of focusing on being good at their craft now as FFs and working to prevent another LODD. They would be saddened to know that their death contributed to a fight within the brotherhood.
What benefit would really come from this guy agreeing with you?
What benefit would really come from this guy apologizing for having a different opinion than you?
WHY is this guys opinion SO IMPORTANT TO YOU?
if he is a wacka-doodle, who cares what he says... his opinion does not really disrespect the dead... those FFs were proud to serve... and I am sure they did not serve to be labeled heros...
There is a clear LODD federally defined category. Does anything else really need to be said... or defended?
I personally believe we should be VERY GLAD as an industry to be moving DOWN on the MOST DANGEROUS list - because that means the U.S. is getting better at protecting FFs.
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Permalink Reply by Jack/dt on
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In most instances a death within 24 hours after the end of shift or last call (vollies) is considered a LODD. Any death that occurs while on duty, on apparatus, scene or while performing a job or duties is considered a LODD. This included responding/returning deaths.
Does a 75 year old FF who only pulls tools or directs traffic and suffers a heart attack on scene or within 24 hours warrant the same designation as a FF who dies in a collapse or flashover? Not for me to decide. But it's hard to reconcile that 75 year old FF gets the same benefits as one who dies in a house collapse.
As far as firefighting on the list of most dangerous professions, it's determined by the number of deaths per 100,000 workers. Commercial fishermen and loggers number much lower than firefighters and so even with fewer annual job related deaths, it may rate as more dangerous because more of them die per 100,000 workers in their profession.
Firefighting is listed around 13 or 14 (I believe) with a death rate of around 17.5 per 100,000 workers. Keep in mind that the Bureau of Labor Statistics does NOT include volunteer firefighters, only paid. So with around 200,000 paid FF's and paid LODD's around 35 you get a death rate of around 17.4/100,000. Include volunteers and you have about 1,200,000 firefighters and an average LODD of 100/year, which gives you about 8.3 LODD per 100,000 firefighters. In most lists firefighting only ranks around 15 or lower.
When you look at the number of working fires throughout the country on a yearly basis, that only 100 firefighters die (and only about 40 at working fires) the death rate for firefighters is pretty low. This is not to say that we shouldn't strive to be as safe as possible but all things considered, running into a burning house is not as dangerous as most people believe it is.
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Permalink Reply by sawyer317 on
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The chief of our vollie FD responded to several calls during his shift, went home at 2300. at 1030 he had a heart attack at his home. Chief Whitney was a 20+ year vetrain of the National guard and had been in our dept. from the early 80's. Phil Whitney was well over 70 years old. Phil was a hero.
Many firefighters don't consider themselves a hero, the public and other brothers and sisters of the FD family deem a FF a hero. Chief Whitney wasn't a hero because he died less than 24 hours after his shift ended, he was a hero because of the type of person he was.
Bottom line; your character defines your heroism, not your job title.
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Permalink Reply by John C. Querin Sr on
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What is the difference between a LODD with a paid FF and a LODD of a volunteer? Both FF's are dead and both family's have suffered the same loss.
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Permalink Reply by Eric Gregory on
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Your first mistake is arguing with someone on the Internet and expecting to win. In all reality you're probably dealing with a guy who doesn't even believe what he's saying himself but is instead enjoying watching you fume. Logic will not change his position and you won't talk him into agreeing with you or apologizing.
Your best bet at this point is just make a clear statement of what you believe and that you don't find the individual you're arguing with to be worth the time to continue and make that your last post.
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Permalink Reply by Paul Montpetit on
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#1...Get your shit together....We are NOT "heroes" We are a group of people fufilling a need for our communities....some in the Career field and others in a Voluntary status....#2...LODD's do NOT have to be on duty nor die while on a call to be a "LODD" Many have collapsed after the call and died from Cardiac conditions sometimes at home hours after the call....I don't give much respect to those that "hide" their profile....to me it is either because they have NO experience and talk out of their butt....or they are NOT involved in the Fire Service to start with....Just my look at it......
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Permalink Reply by Reg Mathis on
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Hey Russ,
Thanks for starting this thread. Sometimes I kinda get the feeling that this subject is the elephant in the room amongst us.
Before I go any further, I want to state utterly and without compromise that my comments are in no way to denigrate, demean or dishonor any fallen comrade.
One opinion that I've always held is that most of the names that appear on the LODD roles are there because they messed up. They made a mistake and paid the ultimate price for it. They were doing their job and got it wrong in the worst possible way.
Are they LODD's? In my opinion, without a doubt.
Should they be honored and remembered? Absolutely, because they died fighting.
Are they heros? In my opinion, no more so than the roofer who takes a misstep or the cabbie that runs a red light.
TCSS
Respectfuly,
Reg
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Permalink Reply by Bekks on
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To borrow something from our brothers and sisters in blue, the police up here in Ontario have on their memorial pin (that they only wear to police funerals):
"Heros in life - not death".
(Here is a picture of the pin)
The first time I heard that, I bristled at it... I was on my way to a police funeral to pay my respects and it took a few minutes for me to understand the logic behind it.
The saying simply means that, it is how you lived your life and the service that you do that makes you a hero.
Not the circumstances of your death.
Yes, you may be in the midst of a heroic act at the time of your passing (which would qualify you for the 'hero' title); but that is not the only criteria for being labled a hero.
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Permalink Reply by kara-lee allen on
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I think generally the perception is that you are a hero if you completed your task, you are a freelancing cowboy if a) you fail or b)you died/were injured or c) you got others killed/injured
a hero is only a hero to those who think they are a hero. something simple as donating to a charity makes you a hero to someone.............
DEFINITION : A hero (heroine for females) (Ancient Greek: ἥρως, hḗrōs), in Greek mythology and folklore, was originally a demigod, their cult being one of the most distinctive features of ancient Greek religion.[1] Later, hero (male) and heroine (female) came to refer to characters who, in the face of danger and adversity or from a position of weakness, display courage and the will for self sacrifice—that is, heroism—for some greater good of all humanity. This definition originally referred to martial courage or excellence but extended to more general moral excellence.
Stories of heroism may serve as moral examples. In classical antiquity, hero cults—veneration of deified heroes such as Heracles, Perseus, and Achilles—played an important role in Ancient Greek religion. Politicians, ancient and modern, have employed hero worship for their own apotheosis (i.e., cult of personality).
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